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| Oct-12-07 | | Plato: <benjinathan> I think 12.Rb1 is a fine move, quite similar to 12.Be3 and probably could transpose in most cases. Supporters of it seem to find it more flexible since it doesn't commit the bishop right away, and they have a point there. In an OTB game I would have played 12.Be3 here, for reasons that <RookFile> and I elaborated on earlier. But, of course, this is far from an OTB game. However, even though 12.dxc6 looked to me like an ugly move for a while and I was arguing against it on sheer principle, the more I analyze it the more I like it (compared to the alternatives). The position may be more or less equal already, but it now appears to me that 12.dxc6 will create the most dynamic, unbalanced position in which we'll have more to play for. I'm still analyzing, but I'll try to post some more detailed computer/human evaluations soon... |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Elixir of Life: <RookFile: <benjinathan: What do you think about Rb1? >
12. Rb1. I don't think it's the best move. After something like ....a5, I'm not seeing a lot of variations where white succeeds in following up with b4.> Hmm... A genuine question... do any other of our move prevent ...a5? |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Plato: <imag> I don't think much information can be gleaned from a couple of engine matches, at least from this position. It is interesting to see how it will be played out, but on each move it's not reaching nearly the level of analysis that we and Timmerman need to reach for a correspondence game. Nothing wrong with it, of course, but in my opinion the outcome of one or two engine matches from a position this early in the game will not reveal much regarding which move is best. If you have the "Deep Position Analysis" feature on Fritz 10 (using Rybka, of course), I find that a much more useful tool for correspondence chess. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Elixir of Life: <Hugin> Feel free to vote for any move you want! If you are really adamant on preventing 12.dxc6, you can still vote for any move you want - if dxc6 is close to overtaking Be3, then you can switch back any moment. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | imag: <Plato>
You might want to take a look at:
12. dxc6 bxc6 13. Nd4 Qe8 14. Qa5 Ne6 15. Nxe6 Bxe6 16. Qa6 Bd7 17. Rb1 Ng4 It will be really difficult to make progress here. Maybe 17.h3 is better to prevent the Knight from going to e5? |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ganstaman: <Hugin: A shait move like 12 dxc6 may infact force me to vote for 12 Be3 just to ensure.. or try to ensure 12 dxc6 does not win. I would like to vote for the strongest moves Bg5 Bf4 or Rb1.Does not seem like i have that option, due to the support the lame 12 dxc6 get's.> Seriously, such negativity and hostility can't possibly help. You know first hand that being rude to others creates a bad environment for this game and does not help us find the best move here. Present your analysis, vote for what you think is best, and trust that the rest of us will listen and vote correctly as well. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Hugin: ganstaman: <Hugin: A shait move like 12 dxc6 may infact force me to vote for 12 Be3 just to ensure.. or try to ensure 12 dxc6 does not win. I would like to vote for the strongest moves Bg5 Bf4 or Rb1.Does not seem like i have that option, due to the support the lame 12 dxc6 get's.> Seriously, such negativity and hostility can't possibly help. You know first hand that being rude to others creates a bad environment for this game and does not help us find the best move here. Present your analysis, vote for what you think is best, and trust that the rest of us will listen and vote correctly as well. < I think it's a bit late you give such advices hence what you have done since the beginning.> |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ajile: < rinus: <ajile> What's the idea after
<12.Be3 c5 13.b4 Ng4 14.Bd2> ?? My Fruitmachine gives:
14...cxb4 15.Qxb4 Na6 16.Qa3 Qb6 17.e3 Qc5 18.Qb3 Qc8 19.h3 Nc5 20.Qc2 Nf6 21.Nd4 Nfe4 22.Rab1 b6 23.Ncb5 a6 24.Nc3 Qc7 25.Bf3 Be5 26.Nxe4 fxe4 Fruit 2.3.1 : -0.30. Depth: 23. Nodes: 5531.1 M> Wow you guys must all be morning people. There's 4-5 pages since I left last night! After much analysis it looks like the 11.d5 Bd7 12.Be3 c5 13.b4 line leads to no more than equality with best moves by White. The other line I've been researching also leads to an equal position: I had my computer on this all night in deep position analysis mode. At 19 ply Fritz 9 decided it liked 13.a4 better than 13.Rb1 in the following position after: 11.d5 Bd7 12.Be3 c5 13. Qb3 a6 14.Qb6 Ne8 15.QxQ RxQ The lines are still really no better than a draw though. 
click for larger viewAnalysis by Fritz 9: 19 ply (Deep Position Analysis)
1. = (0.13): 16.a4 b6 17.Ne1 Rb8 18.Bf4 Ng4 19.Ra3 Ne5 20.b3 h6 21.Nd3 g5 22.Bxe5 dxe5 2. = (0.04): 16.Rab1 b5 17.cxb5 axb5 18.b4 Ng4 19.Bd2 Rc8 20.bxc5 Rxc5 21.Rdc1 Nc7 22.Ne1 Ne5 23.Nd3 Nxd3 24.exd3 3. = (-0.18): 16.a3 b5 17.cxb5 axb5 18.Ne1 Ra8 19.h3 Nc7 20.Nc2 h6 21.Rac1 Kh7 22.Bf4 Nh5 4. = (-0.18): 16.Ne1 b5 17.cxb5 axb5 18.a3 Ra8 19.h3 Nc7 20.Nc2 h6 21.Rac1 Kh7 22.Bf4 Nh5 5. ³ (-0.35): 16.Rac1 b5 17.b3 Rb8 18.h3 Nc7 19.a3 bxc4 20.bxc4 Rb3 21.Nb1 Ne4 22.Rd3 Rb2 |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Judah: <<RookFile>: <benjinathan: What do you think about Rb1? > 12. Rb1. I don't think it's the best move. After something like ....a5, I'm not seeing a lot of variations where white succeeds in following up with b4.> But is a5 really best for Black? Sure, he prevents b4, but this comes at the price of weakening b6. Surely that's something we can exploit (e.g. Na4-b6). |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ongyj: The votings are getting kind of interesting. I still prefer 12.dxc6, but I'd much rather see 12.Rg1 than 12.Be3... Is there possible rooms for negotiations? =) |
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Oct-12-07
 | | GoldenKnight: I was saddened to learn of the departure of <Artar1>, but it wasn’t really surprising. I could see that he was getting increasingly frustrated with his inability to divine the positions in our game with his usual method of sliding analysis. This really came home to me when <twinlark> posted some negative but sincere comments about the way we were working as a team. I actually thought he made some good points, but I noticed that <Artar1> answered that post point by point with a sarcasm that was uncharacteristic of him. His final post cited some comments indicating the reason why he was quitting, and I could not see how those comments were offensive. I finally did see the post by <Thorsson> that really got to him, but he should realize that <Thorsson> has many times indicated his respect for him with compliments that he has never offered to anyone else. It was merely the straw that broke the camel’s back. I have always wondered how he could put such time into our games, and when his labors started bearing less fruit, I think it caused him to suffer burnout. As for <Thorsson>, <Domdaniel>, and <RookFile>, these ones do not suffer fools gladly, and I for one am glad of it. If anyone objects to their sharp wit, I suggest they look at the GMAN game. It was brutal. In that game I saw people, not strong players, posting for the first time and sincere in their comments, who immediately got hammered so hard that they never came back. I myself, before I ever posted, saw what was going on and made sure I made my first post in such a way that I would not be treated the same. <Domdaniel> even complimented me on that first post and warned me to be mindful in my future posts. I didn’t actually need the warning, but I appreciated it. I made sure that all my posts were made in such a way so as not to be on the receiving end of the many barbs flying about. It must be acknowledged, however, that we also had a serious problem with trolls in that game. I agree with <Thorsson> that this team is stronger than the GMYS team – by far, even stronger than the GMAN game. We need it. I absolutely agree with him on gung-ho attitude that has been evident here, even as it was in the GMYS game. Remember, we only won that game because of inexactitudes and a missed drawing line on his part. When I saw (I believe) Qa3 running away with it in this game, I could not bring myself to vote. The stronger players need to take over, as it looks to me like they’re doing, even if it means being a bit “muscular” (though I won’t condone abuse). I am seeing what I asked for earlier: good positional analytical ideas backed up by lines, and far fewer computer-generated lines, even by <Hugin> (though I’m not crediting myself for that). It only seems to me that <kwid> should be listened to more, but maybe he is. As for <Artar1>, my dear comrade in chess, this is not your best kind of game yet. Rest up and come back in the middle- to endgame when your superlative centaur skills will once again shine to the glory of the team. P.S. I just looked at the current page before posting -- really nice comments in the right spirit with just a few computer lines. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Judah: I guess you didn't notice that <Artar1> has already returned. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ongyj: Hmm... A suggestion for chessgames.com would be that in the next GM VS the world, allow players to make a few ranked choices (eg. 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice ect.), and/or even vote your your fav. move AND the #1 move that you don't want to see. That might allow the resultant move to at least, be closer to general consensus.
Had that been the case, I'd suppose that 12.Rb1 would win it, from the current situation ^Ô^ If 12.dxc6 gets outbidded, I bid good luck for 12.Rb1. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | YouRang: <Elixir of Life><I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO CONSIDER <Rb1>> I'm in. Previously I had Be3, but I wasn't comfortable with it. It didn't give the bishop greater mobility than it had at c1. It connected our rooks (a Good Thing), but it also blocked our e-pawn and could become a target for black's knight. I've been analyzing the position after 12. Be3 c5 overnight, and at 21-ply white's advantage fell from 0.19 to 0.05 (and I'm not even sure that 12...c5 was black's best move). Meanwhile, 12. Be3 isn't even in <RV>'s latest list of best moves (at 27-ply), while 12. Rb1 has emerged as the best. Good enough to convince me to switch. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Hugin: >GoldenKnight< Atar1 is back he just sleeps now i guess. |
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Oct-12-07
 | | kwgurge: 12. Rb1 makes black show his cards without weakening our position. Although it supports b4, that is not an immediately necessary follow-up. It gets the rook off the a1-h8 diagonal. 12.dxc6, IMO, gives away too much. It relieves the central tension, removes our current central bind and concedes some space which is currently pretty much white's only advantage. 12.Be3 is a waiting move which doesn't do too much (especially after c5). If we are going to play a waiting move, let's play one that doesn't block the e pawn, require a second tempo to relocate to a better square after c5, and can't be chased with a black knight move. If after 12. Rb1 black does not play a5, which is quite possible, then we get in b4. If he does play 12...a5, 13.Be3 may then be better with an eye on the b6 square. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | MarkThornton: For the pollster, I have switched my vote from <12. dxc6> to <12. Rb1>. I'm now convinced that 12. Rb1 is better than my previous choice. I have tried and failed to find a good line for us after <12. Be3 c5> |
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Oct-12-07
 | | OhioChessFan: Tabanus: <I'm not sure (will try to check later) but I doubt <12.Be3 c5 13.Rb1 a5> is the correct move order because of 13...Ng4> IMO Bd2 is a thematic response to Ng4. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | RookFile: 12. Rb1 also frees up the a1 square for the queen. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Judah: The Rb1 bandwagon is starting to roll... |
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| Oct-12-07 | | acirce: <But is a5 really best for Black? Sure, he prevents b4, but this comes at the price of weakening b6. Surely that's something we can exploit (e.g. Na4-b6).> Yes, I'd think there is a good chance, sooner or later. Although I admit Rb1 looks a little stupid after ..a5 but it should certainly be useful to move the rook away from the diagonal anyway. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | imag: <MarkThornton>
But these lines transpose. I mean after 12.Rb1 a5 13.Be3 is best followed by 13...c5 and you're back in the same line. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Judah: <RookFile>, careful with the sarcasm, or someone reading too quickly might think you support Rb1. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ganstaman: <Hugin: <ganstaman: <Hugin: A shait move like 12 dxc6 may infact force me to vote for 12 Be3 just to ensure.. or try to ensure 12 dxc6 does not win. I would like to vote for the strongest moves Bg5 Bf4 or Rb1.Does not seem like i have that option, due to the support the lame 12 dxc6 get's.> Seriously, such negativity and hostility can't possibly help. You know first hand that being rude to others creates a bad environment for this game and does not help us find the best move here. Present your analysis, vote for what you think is best, and trust that the rest of us will listen and vote correctly as well.> I think it's a bit late you give such advices hence what you have done since the beginning.> No, I have never said anything insulting to anyone except maybe <Rookfile>, but he can handle it (else he would have been off this site years ago...). As your post here indicates, you simply can't handle criticism of any degree, which is why you saw my earlier posts as insulting. And I definitely never called a move "shait" or lame. As far as I recall, I never accused whole portions of the team of wanting nothing more than a loss. Look at your posts again -- you 'threaten' to leave if a certain move is voted for and show absolute disgust towards that move and anyone who votes for it. That is a level of negativity I have not reached in my posts here. People, including me, actually do follow your posts and listen to you. But I don't know who would want to side with your recent anti-12.dxc6 posts. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ajile: <chesstoplay: Hi < Elixir >, Yury was sick yesterday and had virutally had no voice to speak with. He's suppose to play in the Midwest Class in Oakbrook, Illinois this weekend, but may not be healthy enough. I may not see him until Sunday at the tournament or Monday night. I'll e-mail him and ask him to look at the position, but can't predict that he'll get to it.> GMYS? I thought the game was limited to amateurs.
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