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Andrei Istratescu vs Bassem Amin
Dresden Olympiad (2008), Dresden GER, rd 1, Nov-13
Dutch Defense: Classical. Ilyin-Zhenevsky Variation General (A97)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-04-10  apiana: so white wins anyway why should i search for a solution for black??? not to get immediately mated or what??
Sep-04-10  LIFE Master AJ: <Sep-04-10 Rook e2: How is it that the most players here solved this puzzle but a grandmaster didn't?>

I think that this post also applies here: Z Franco-Ocampos vs J Sequera, 2002.

Sep-04-10  Patriot: I opted for 63...Nh3, which should be a pretty simple draw. I was also looking at 63...Ne6, but decided against it because 64.Bh7+ followed by 65.Kxe6 looked lost.

It's interesting that I didn't see 63...Rf1+ since I'm always pushing to look at "checks, captures, and threats" (in that order). The reason is that when I looked over the position and saw that black's goal is a draw and that the only way black could win is a forced mate, which isn't going to happen, I started looking for ideas on how to draw (not just forced sequences).

The idea for 63...Nh3 is for example 64.Kf6 (threatening 65.Rh8#) Rxg6+ 65.Kxg6 Nf4+ 66.Kg5 Nxh5 67.Kxh5 Kxg7 draw. 64.Be8 Kxg7 looks drawish, thanks to the rook pawn. The only other defense I could think of is 64.Rh7. Perhaps 64...Ng5 is good enough (65.Rh5 Nh3 or 65.Rh6 Kxg7).

Premium Chessgames Member
  paulalbert: It was clear that the stalemate idea was there and I thought Rf1ch immediately which seemed to work. Did not look at Nh3, but saw other N moves did not work.
Sep-04-10  caissafan1963: Rf1+ seemed very easy to find, and the stalemate theme isn't anything new. I didn't consider Nh3, but after seeing Rf1, why look further? Personally, I thought this puzzle belonged on a Thursday maybe.
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Pshaw,black missed the draw!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: I did not find an easy win for white after the text 63 ...Ne6?, because it is anything but easy.

I plugged the position into the Nalimov tablebase applet after 65... Re1+.

With best play, here is the position a few moves later.

click for larger view

Now it's white to play and mate in 22 moves.

By the way, again with best play by black, with each of the next three white moves there is only one winning move.

Sep-04-10  LIFE Master AJ: <Jimfromprovidence>

click for larger view

White: King-on-e5, Bf5, Rg3. Black: King-on-h4, Rf8.

1.Rg6 Rb8; 2.Kf4 Rb4+; 3.Be4 Rb5; 4.Rg8 Ra5; 5.Rg2 Ra3; 6.Bc2 Rc3; 7.Bf5 Rc4+; 8.Be4 Rc3; 9.Rg4+ Kh3; 10.Rg6 Kh2; 11.Rg2+ Kh3; 12.Rd2 Rc4; 13.Rd1, and White wins.

(Some people may not have those tools, to give that position ... without the solution ... could be considered a "tease" here ... ... ...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: So Rf1+ is the answer?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Sneaky: So Rf1+ is the answer?>

It looks like 63. Ne6 was a mistake by white which cost him the game. Instead, he would probably have drawn with either 63. Rf1+ or 63. Nh3.

Sep-04-10  wals: Nalimov Tablebases.

Black to move....65.
Rc1, Ra1, lose in 22.
Rf1, Re1, Rd1, Rh1, lose in 21
Rg2, Rg3, lose in 19.
Rg5, lose in 14.
Kf8, lose in 14.
Kh8, lose in 10.
Rg6, lose in 5.
Rg4, lose in 4.
Rb1, lose in 3.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: <LIFE Master AJ>

Whenever I find an interesting turn of events with these puzzles that I think is beneficial to the group, I've posted it from time to time.

People can take it or leave it; I post these things in an attempt to get the kibitzers to try to work out a tough solution to a problem that they may not have yet encountered.

The solution comes later, after a few attempts to solve have been made. In any case, the link to the Nalimov data base is below. Anyone can access it. It's a fantastic tool.

In this case., the point was to try to get people to take a deeper look as to why 63... Nc6 does not work.

Sep-04-10  wals: Black's move(+5.26): 63...Ne6 was a blunder.
Bettter was:-

Analysis by Rybka 4 x64:depth 27.

1. (0.80): 63...Rf1+ 64.Kxg5 Rg1+ 65.Kf5 Rxg6 66.Rg5 Rxg7 67.Kg4 Kh8 68.Kh3 Kh7 69.Ra5 Kh6 70.Ra3 Rd7[

63...Nh3, 1.15, could have also been considered.

Sep-04-10  David2009: Istratescu vs B Amin, 2008 Black 63...?

I think there was a double blunder here. In the diagram position Rh6 should win for White (the threat is Kf6) : as played Rh5 should have allowed Nf3 drawing

click for larger view

(Istratescu vs Amin 2008, 63?)

My original draft kibitz in Notepad is too long and dull to post. I had analysed Rf1+ as a loss, then various N moves/sacrifices as losses, finally discovering 63...Nh3 which draws. 64 Kf6 is met by 64...Rxg6+ 65 Kxg6 Nf4+ drawn. 64 Rh7 is met by Nf4 e.g. 65 Bf7+ Kxf7! =

Time to check against Crafty End Game Trainer: if I am right White wins with 63 Rh6, draws with 63 Rh5:

Well I am wrong on the first count: Black still draws after 63 Rh6 with 63...Nf7!

I am right that Rh5 draws - it gives the puzzle position - but for the wrong reasons. The best defence is as played by Crafty EGT: 63...Rf1+! 64 Kxg5 Rg1+! 65 Kf6 65 Rxg6+ and 66 Kxg6 gives stalemate. For some unaccountable reason I had missed this but I HAD seen that after Kh6 (instead of Kf6) Rxg6+ FORCED Kxg6 with stalemate. Chess blindness takes very odd forms.

63...Nh3 also draws but White can give Black a hard time with 64 Rh8+! Try this with Crafty colours reversed: Not as easy to draw as it looks after starting Nh6 (in the colours-reversed board): of course Rf8+ is a simple draw.

Sep-04-10  echever7: Well, black can't win this one. THe white rook is kind of traped but is of not use for black right now. At first glance it seems not so difficult. 62...Nh3 with the idea Rxg6-Nf4 1/2-1/2 black create two menaces 63...Rxg6 and 63...Kxg7 Let's see:

a- 63.Kf6-Rxg6+ 1/2 1/2 (there's a remote possibility of mating the white king after this variant, with whites' big cooperation of course).

b.63.Rh7-Nf4 64.h5-Nxg6 65.hxg6-Rxg6 1/2 1/2 (the amazing 63...Rxg6 64.Kxg6-Nf4+ 65.Kh6-Ng6 fails because 66.h5)

b-63.K moves-Rxg6

c- 64.Bishop moves-Kxg7 or Rxg7
I must confess that I can' see any winning line for white so the label "difficult" seems to me a little suspicious. May be I'm missing something...

Sep-04-10  WhiteRook48: i had 63...Rf1+ 64 Kxg5 rg1+ 65 Kf5 Rxg6 66 Rh8+ Kxg7 and white cannot win 64 ke5 and 64...kxg7 65 rxg5 rxg5 66 hxg5 kxg6 67 kf4 kg7 =
Premium Chessgames Member
  benveniste: I see the ♖f1+ lines, but I can't see the draw after ♘h3 and ♖h8+. Can someone please sketch out that line for me?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: It's sort of tragic how Black sets up the stalemate possibility with 62...Nxg5, then seems to forget about it. Here's another case I witnessed in Michigan years ago, albeit at a far lower level:

Robbins (1920) - Dolin (1605) (Howell, 1994)

click for larger view

White had been making a magnificient fight in a lost ♔+♙ ending, but 57...Qf8+ 58.Kg5 Ke5 would end all resistance. Instead, Black blundered with <57...Qh8+?? 58.g7 Qxh7 59.g8Q!>

Now 59...Qxg8 would be stalemate, so White tried the effect of checking: <59...Qh4+ 60.Kf7 Qc4+>

click for larger view

And now after 61.Kf6!, the stalemate would be on again and Black could make no progress. Instead, White lost with <61.Kg7?? Qxg8+> since after 62.Kxg8 Ke5 his pawn comes off.

Sep-05-10  nuwanda: Hi <Jimfromprovidence>

i think you reached your above diagram via 65...Re1 66.Kd5 Ra1 67.Kd4 Ra8 68.Be4 Rh8 69.Rg5+ Kh6 70.Ke5 Rf8 71.Rg3 Kh5 72.Bf5 Kxh4 (or something similar). This is what tablebases give you as the best for both sides.

But you have to be careful with tablebases. they give you the shortest way to victory but not the, for humans, easiest way. for example in the above line after 70...Rf8

click for larger view

white is by no means forced to give his h-pawn. In keeping it, say with 71.Rg4 Kh5 72.Bf5 or with 71.Rg1 Kh5 72.Rh1 he can reach a technical winning position with his pawn still on the board, similar to the game continuation.

this is for humans much easier and clearer then calculating a forced win with R+B against R.

Sep-05-10  gofer: The last thing black wants is hxg5 as it moves the awful h pawn onto the g file where it is much stronger. As we saw a couple of weeks ago the h pawn cannot promote with the king on h8 with only the DSB to help! So as the g7 pawn is going nowhere at the moment, it doesn't seem that Kxg7 is necessary and also could be dangerous.

So what about knight moves.

63 ... Nf3 allows Kf6 winning
63 ... Nf7 allows Kf6 winning
63 ... Ne6 64 Bh7+ Kxg7 65 Kxe6 winning
63 ... Ne4 64 Bh7+ Kxg7 65 Kxe4 winning

63 ... Nh3!

64 Ke6 Nf4+ winning!
64 Kf6 Rxg6+! drawing
64 Bh7+ Kxg7 drawing
64 Be8 Kxg7 drawing
64 Rh6 Kxg7 drawing

64 Rh7 Nf4
65 Kxf4 Rxg6 drawing

Time to check...

Sep-05-10  echever7: <benveniste> Yes may be I'm missing something. Let's see together. 63...Nh3 64.Rxh8 Kxg7 65.Rh7 Kg8 66.Kf6- Nf4 67.Bf5-Nd5+ 68.Ke5-Rg7 69.Rh6-Nc7...hmmm I don´t know but it seems to me that black can hold the position

70.Kf6-Ne8+ 71.Ke6-Nc7+ etc

70. Rd6-Re7+ 71.kf6-Ne8+ 1/2 1/2

70. Rb6-Rf7 71.Rb8 Kg7

I'm aware I'm may be missing some winnig variant for white. I have not a cheesboard with me right now. I'll analise and give you a decent answer. I´m thinking about the plan h5 (instead 66.Kf6)

Sep-06-10  echever7: < benveniste > Again me. In my first com there's a strange mistake 65...Rxg6??? in "b" variant. (Sometimes you get lost while checking in your head)Obviously that endgame, after 65.hxg6 is an easy draw. The only line that can yield something of a winning hope for white is 63...Nh3 64.Rh8 Kxg7 65.Rh7 Kg8 66.h5 not allowing Kf4, and the idea of further advance h6 creating some threats as putting the pawn on h7 or trying to checkmate (kf6,Bf5,h6,Ra7)..I´m seaching how to play black precisely Any help?
Sep-07-10  echever7: <David2009> I'm now reading the previous to mine comments...and saw yours. Your final comment is right but the argument you gave <"Try this with Crafty colours reversed:"> is weak. I checked that one and was not impressed 63...Nh3 64.Rh8 Kxg7 65.Rh7 Kg8 66.Rd7-Rf1+ 67.Ke5-Nf4 68.bf7 Kf8 69.h5?-Nd3+ with an inmediate draw.

Stronger IMO 66.h5 not allowing Nf4 Lets see: 66...Rf1+ 67.Kg4-Nf4? 68.Rf7 1-0 or 67...Nf2+? 68.Kf3 1-0 or 67...Ng1 68.Rd7 and black have to fight for a draw ...

Sep-08-10  echever7: Hummm I have some miscalculation in my previous com. 67...Nf2+ doesn't lose inmediately. 68.Kf3 with the idea 69.Kg2(e2)can be meet with 69...Nd1+

70.Kg2-Rf6 not allowing h6 (the main threat) It seems a drawish endgame after all.

The variant 70. Ke2 instead of Kg2 can be met with 70...Rg8 (h8) again not allowing h6 . Without h6 it doesn´t seem possible a win for white.

Curious 69...Nh1 (instead Nd1). Here the problem is not that after Rd7-d3-h3 the knight is lost, because or the drawish endgame resulting after exchanging rooks. Seems more problematic the fact that Nh1 allows 72.h6 and black have big, big problems. I mean 69.Kf3-Nh1+ 70.Kg2- Rd1 71.Re7-Kh8 72.h6 1-0
If not 71...Kh8 then

a-rook moves (i.e 71...Ra1) 72.h6- 1-0

b-71...Kf8 72.h6-Ra6 73.Rf7 Kg8 74-h7+ 1-0 (73...Ke8 74.Rf6+ 1-0)

So black can hold the position after all. but have to play very very carefully after 63...Kh3

Sep-10-10  echever7: It seems there's bad news for ALL my calculations. After h6 it seems to be a draw. The position: white Kg5-Rh7-Bg6-ph6 Black Kg8 Rd8 seems drawish!! I can't win this one playing white. :(

Any help?

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