|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Feb-28-10 | | johnlspouge: Sunday (Insane)
W Watson vs D Ciric, 1991 (36...?) Black to play and win.
Material: R for N+3P. The White Kc2 is stalemated. The White Nc3 protects the invasion point d1, suggesting 36…Rxc3+ to permit a heavy-piece attack against Kc2. Candidates (36...): Rxc3+
36…Rxc3+
(1) 37.bxc3 Qd1+ 38.Kb2 Rb8+ 39.Ka3 Rb3+ 40.Ka4 [axb3 Qxb3#] 40…Rb6+ 41.Kany [Rc2 is worse] Rxf6
Black has Q for 3P.
(1) 37.Kxc3 [Qxc3 Qd1#]
37…Rd3+
(1.1) 38.Kxc4 Qd5+ 39.Kb4 Rd4+
40.Qxd4 [Ka3 Qc5+ and # soon] [Kb3 Qc4+ then 41…Qb4#] [Kc3 Qc4#] 40…Qxd4+ 41.Ka5 [else, Qd3+ forks Re2]
41…Qc5+ then 42…Qc4+ forks Re2
Black has Q for 4P.
(1.2) 38.Kb4 [Kc2 Qd1#]
38…Qb7+
(1.2.1) 39.Kc5 [Kxc4 Qd5+, transposing to (1.1)]
40…Rd5+ 40.Kxc4 Qb5+ 41.Kc3 Qc5+ 42.Kb3 Rd3+ 43.Qc3
[Ka4 Rd4+, like (1.1)]
43…Rxc3+ 44.bxc3 Qb5+ (forking Re2)
Black will have Q for 4P.
(1.2.2) 39.Ka5 Rd5+ 40.Ka4 Qb5+ 41.Ka3 Qa5#
(1.2.3) 39.Ka4 Qd7+
(1.2.3.1) 40.Ka5 Rd5+ 41.Kb4 [Ka6 Qb5#]
Candidates (41…): Qb5+, a5+, Rb5+
[41…Qb5+ 42.Kc3 Rd3+ 43.Kc2 Qa4+ 44.b3 Qxa2+ 45.Qb2,
and White is losing]
[41…a5+ 42.Ka3 Rd3+ 43.b3 and White has time to breathe] 41…Rb5+ 42.Ka3 [Ka4 Rb6+, winning Qf6]
[Kxc4 Qd5+ 43.Kc3 Rc5+ 44.Kb4 Qc4+ 45.Ka3 Ra5]
42...Qc5+ then 43...Qb4#
(1.2.3.2) 40.Kb4 [Ka5 Rd5+ then 41…Rb5+, as in (1.2.3.1)] 40…a5+ 41.Kxa5 [Kxc4 Qd5#] [Kc5 Rd5+ and # soon]
41…Rd5+ 42.Kb4 [Kb6 Qb7#]
42…Rb5+ and # soon, like (1.2.3.1) |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | johnlspouge: In heavy piece attacks like today, I usually view exhaustive enumeration as a waste of time, because the variations become tiresomely numerous and largely repetitive. On my own, I prefer to sample a few critical variations to establish whether the heavy pieces have enough resources to maintain the attack. For those who might doubt that I still have the chops to calculate, however, the foregoing should forestall any suggestions of remedial push-ups. Give me 30, <Antonio> ;>} |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | ceebo: I wonder if these were the guys who found the structure of DNA? :) |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | Samagonka: what a drunken combination! |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | Quentinc: Well, so much for my theory that it "just had to be a win" for Black after 37...Rd3+. It's still hard for me to believe, although obviously if the engines are saying so, not to mention all of you, it has to be the case. What about 40. Ka5 Rd5+ (which again, to my unsophisticated mind, looked like a sure win)? But the best I can do is 41 Qb4+ Qb5+ 42 Kc3 Qa5+ 43 Kc2 Qa4 44 b3 Qa2+ 45 Qb2 cxb3+ 46 Kc1 Rc5+ 47 Kd1 and I guess Black doesn't have a win after all. |
|
Feb-28-10
 | | LIFE Master AJ: I guessed - almost immediately - that 36...RxN/c3+; had to be the first move. (Its the most forcing, nothing esle comes close.) However, after about ten minutes of analysis, I was NOT convinced that Black will win, although he does come very close. |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | Quentinc: <JohnLSpouge> I see you went a lot deeper into the line I had mentioned, with 40 Ka5 Rd5+. I may have gotten confused in all your variations, but in your <(1.2.3.1) 40.Ka5 Rd5+ 41.Kb4 41…Rb5+ 42.Ka3...42...Qc5+ then 43...Qb4#> isn't Black's queen still on d7?, thus rendering Qc5+ a fond dream? |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | wals: Rybka 3 1-cpu: 3071mb hash: confirms <rhedrich> and <patzer2's> assessment of a draw by three-fold repetition. 40.Ka5 Rd5+ 41.Kb4 Rb5+ 42.Ka3 Ra5+
43.Kb4 Rb5+ 44.Ka3 Ra5+ 45.Kb4 Rb5+ |
|
Feb-28-10
 | | Jimfromprovidence: <Quentinc> With your 40 Ra5 Rd5+ line, you have found the insane part of this puzzle.
click for larger viewOne continuation is 41 Kb4 Rb5+ 42 Ka3 Ra5+ 43 Kb4 Ra4+ 44 Kc5, but white is still alive. 
click for larger viewBlack is so close but he can't play 44...Qc7+ because 45 Qc6+ forces the queen exchange and white wins. So it is a draw. 
click for larger view |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | Quentinc: <Johnlspouge> -- well do some pushups for me too. I'm sure I could use them more than you. :) But in any event, I'm not convinced that 41...Qb5+ wins either after 42 Kc3. that's the variation I had posted about a bit earlier. |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | Quentinc: <<Quentinc> With your 40 Ra5 Rd5+ line, you have found the insane part of this puzzle.> Jim, it's certainly driven me insane! It just doesn't seem right somehow, that Black doesn't have a win. |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | johnlspouge: < <Quentinc> wrote: [snip] isn't Black's queen still on d7 [snip] > Yes, you are right. The computers (<wals>, <patzer2>, etc.) seem to be saying the variation leads to a draw. I am doing my 30 push-ups :)
Thanks for keeping me honest. |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | johnlspouge: Hi, <Quentinc>. I deleted the mistaken post before you responded, just in case anyone thinks you are talking to yourself :) |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | tacticalmonster: 1) white has knight and three kingside passed pawns for the exchange. 2) Black major pieces are well placed. Black has doubled rook and controlled the d-file. Black queen penetrate to the back rank and control the h1-a8 long diagonal. 3) Both kings are exposed but both armies control every entry points leading toward their kings. White guards the d1 and d2 squares. 4) the c4 pawn did a great attacking job of guarding the b3 and d3 squares. 5) white queen is offside not playing a defensive role on the kingside candidate: Rxc3+ - The only move that makes sense. Black has no chance in the ending. Black needs to seek salvation by attacking the black king. White knight guards the d1 entry point for black major pieces. The e2 rook is loose after the sacrifice. 1 Rxc3+ 2 Kxc3 Rd3+ 3 Kb4 (3 Kxc4 Qd5+ 4 Kb4 Rd4+ 5 Ka3 Qa5+ 6 Kb3 Qb5+ 7 Kc2 Qxe2+  ) Qb7+ 4 Ka4 Qd7+ 5 Kb4 a5+! 6 Kxa5 Rd5+ 7 Kb4 Rb5+ 8 Ka3 Qa7 mate( 8 Kxc4 Qd5+ 9 Kc3 Rc5+ 10 Kb4 Qc4+ 11 Ka3 Ra5 mate) ( 8 Ka4 Rb3++ 9 Ka5 Qb5+) ( 8 Kc3 Qd3 mate) |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | WhiteRook48: i thought it was white's move. so that was re3 |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | WhiteRook48: but that runs into rd2# |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | ZZer: Couldn't White draw with 40. Ka5? |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | dancindazed: As an intermediate player, I must say, this puzzle was not insanely difficult. The continuation was the first thing I thought of, and I would play it instinctively in fast time controls. |
|
| Feb-28-10 | | Quentinc: <Hi, <Quentinc>. I deleted the mistaken post before you responded, just in case anyone thinks you are talking to yourself :)> Thanks John. I thought it was because the puzzle had driven me insane. |
|
Feb-28-10
 | | Richard Taylor: I solved this one quite quickly. It seemed too obvious for an "insane" one but I was right in my analysis. |
|
Mar-01-10
 | | Black Vampire: This is a message for Chessgames.com. As many kibitzers have said, 40.Ka5!! draws (my engine Glaurung 2.1 agrees this move draws mathematically), so this puzzle is 'ill-solved'. I mean that White played badly and the correct solution forces a perpetual check by Black, otherwise White has a great advantage, maybe decisive. For it I think that you, Chessgames.com, should make a comment about this situation. |
|
Mar-02-10
| | Richard Taylor: <Black Vampire> Click on the link "About our puzzles" just underneath them. I don't think it matters if it is a draw or not. If you get the main ideas and would be prepared to play it OTB you have basically "solved it" (many attacks or combinations are unclear - to a human ) - in all likelihood you would win as Black would go wrong as happened here. I consider I solved it even though I didn't think it was a draw. I didn't bother with a computer as I just use these as calculation practice. |
|
Mar-02-10
| | Richard Taylor: <Black Vampire>
Here is where you can tell CG.com
chessgames.com chessforum |
|
Apr-20-10
| | LIFE Master AJ: <wals> I also thought I saw a draw ... but I was not really sure. |
|
Apr-20-10
| | LIFE Master AJ: [40.Ka5! Rd5+!? (40...Qd5+ 41.Ka4 Qd7+ 42.Ka5=) 41.Kb4 Rb5+ 42.Ka3[] Forced. (Of course not: 42.Kc3?? Qd3#; Also terrible is: </= 42.Kxc4?? Qd5+ 43.Kc3 Rc5+ 44.Kb4 Qc4+ 45.Ka3 Ra5#) 42...Ra5+ 43.Kb4 Rb5+ 44.Ka3 Ra5+ 45.Kb4 Rb5+; "=" ] - Analysis with Fritz 12. This is sort of what I saw at one point.
40.Ka5! runs counter to intuition and experience ... it looks like the WK errs by purposely allowing a Rook check on d5. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 36...Rxc3+