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| Oct-09-10 | | euripides: <Bill> thanks - our posts crossed. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | euripides: After <55.Kd4 g5> the simplest seems 56.Kc5 gh (or Kg6 57.Kd6 Kf5 58.hxg5 and White is several tempi ahead) 57.Kd6 Kg6 58.Kxe6 Kg5 59.Kd6 Kg4 60.e6 Kxg2 61.e7 h3 62.e8=Q h2 63.Qxh5 h1=Q 64.Qxh1+ and White wins the pawn ending. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | timothee3331: euripides your variation cleary works, i just wanted to show my 58...Kf5!! so i put the variation with 56.hxg5?? and 56.g3! but i could also have put 56.Kc5!.
It just seems that today's puzzle is about prophylactic thinking, so it seemed interesting ^^ |
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| Oct-09-10 | | EXIDE: Got it, finally ! Thanks for the informative posts. 55 ...Kh7 , is a mistake. Instead g5+ draws. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | wordfunph: black in zugzwang after 56...Kg7, no way out but to resign 1-0! |
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| Oct-09-10 | | timothee3331: i checked with Fritz and 56.hxg5 loses cleary on 57...h4! so this variation is completely uninteresting ! |
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| Oct-09-10 | | BillWilliamsMovie: Kind of agree with Timothee
The triangulation line was interesting to work out, but it was lost anyways. Not sure what you could learn from this other than be careful with the lines you choose. Possibly, attacking the corresponding squares around the black e6 pawn and white e5 pawn instead of trying to promote the flank pawn is the point, but Im not sure if this can be considered a rule. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | agb2002: The material is even.
The promotion of the b-pawn costs 9 moves, while Black also needs 9 moves to promote a h-pawn (g5, gxh4, Kg5-xg2, h3-1). Therefore, try to exploit the dark squares on the king side instead with 55.Kf4: A) 55... Kg7 56.Kg5
A.1) 56... Kf7 57.Kh6 and Black will lose his g- and h-pawns. A.2) 56... Kh7 57.Kf6 and White will promote his e-pawn. B) 55... Kh7 56.Kg5 Kg7 57.g3 is similar to A.
C) 55... g5+ 56.Kg3 (56.hxg5+ Kg6 57.g3 Kg7 58.Ke4 Kg6 and White seems unable to make progress) gxh4+ 57.Kxh4 Kg6 58.g4 hxg4 59.Kxg4 Kh6 and White is stuck. Another possibility is to attack either the a-pawn or the e-pawn with Kd4-c5 depending of what Black plays so 55.Kd4 g5 56.Kc5 A) 56... gxh4 57.Kd6 Kg5 58.Kxe6 winning.
B) 56... Kg6 57.Kd6 Kf5 58.hxg5 followed by either g6 or Kxe6, winning in any case. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | goldenbear: I didn't see g5+, but I also never considered Kf4. I saw that White has a better king, an advantage which might evaporate if he were to initiate play on the kingside, the only part of the board Black's king has any influence on. The only trick is to appreciate how long it would take for Black to engineer a passed pawn on the kingside. He can't do it with the pawns alone. In retrospect, even more so after calculating the Kf4 variations, I am suprised White isn't also winning after Kf4, but general logic avoided this trap for me. |
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Oct-09-10
 | | Jimfromprovidence: Last night I posted that after 55 Kd4, if black plays either 55...Kg7 or 55...g5, white should follow with 56 Kc5 in both instances. However, in the case of 55 Kd4 Kg7, white wins with 56 Kc4 as well. 
click for larger viewAgain, if black follows with 56...g5, white cannot play 57 hxg5. White now wins easiest with 57 Kb4. (57 Kc5 looks winning as well but requires more finesse). |
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| Oct-09-10 | | JG27Pyth: timothee:
So that leaves our third "candidate idea" :
III) 55.Kd4 g5 56.g3!
I'm not certain as this sort of analysis can get tricky but I don't see that 56.g3 is winning (56...g4 =) -- I think the winning line is 55.Kd4 g5 56.Kc5! White sacs the h-pawn to win tempi for his King to promote the e-pawn. Now A)56...Kg6 57.Kd6 Kf5 58.hxg5 
B)56...gxh4 57.Kxe6
apologies if this has all been covered (or is hopelessly wrong). |
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| Oct-09-10 | | timothee3331: on 56...g4 57.Kc5 Kg6 58.Kc6 ! Kf5 59.Kd6 ! 1-0 I didn't think about it, i must admit |
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| Oct-09-10 | | rapidcitychess: Too easy for a Saturday. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | Brandon plays: This was pretty easy. I saw Kd4 without too much effort. I mean it is simply a matter of how white is going to invade. It doesn't really work on the kingside, but it does coming through the queen side. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | karnak64: Hmm. A few moves and the d-pawn belongs to white. I wonder if the game's actual continuation has to do with what happens all too often to me -- I get so focused on what happens on one quadrant of the board, unaware of what I could be doing (or my opponent could be doing) on the other three. |
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| Oct-09-10 | | timothee3331: If there wasn't ....g5, Kf4! would be perfectly winning, in fact it was chosen during the game and the black player didn't have the chess ability to refute it.
So it is completely wrong to say that you can play Kd4 on general grounds, you may not see Kf4 and have a good deal of luck, but that isn't the way we should play our beloved game.
The interest of this exercise is to developp what Mark Dvorestky calls "prophylactic thinking". |
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| Oct-09-10 | | goldenbear: <"that isn't the way we should play our beloved"> You may not see how ridiculous that argument is and you may get lucky and find someone to agree with you, but that is not how we should argue over our beloved chess logic. On moral grounds!? |
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Oct-09-10
 | | doubledrooks: I saw that 55. Kd4 is an easy win for white. For example, 55...g5 56. Kc5 gxh4 57. Kd6 Kg5 58. Kxe6 Kg4 59. Kf6 Kg3 60. Kg5 Kxg2 61. Kxh4 |
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| Oct-09-10 | | timothee3331: I must admit it was a bit too much (!) but still i love chess and if you don't agree with my point of view, you shouldn't call it ridiculous. I'm not here to debate some crucial subject, so that means at least that the discussion should remain "casual" and "unserious".
But since you want to speak very seriously , tell me what i did get wrong:
-could it well be an exercise about prophylactic thinking ?
-isn't this move winning unless you discover ...g5! ? I think the other commentators calculated the right variation with Kd4 so they didn't need to forestall the opponent's reply on Kf4, but to present it as a decision based on general grounds , and to discredit the search about Kf4 which at first appears just as simple is unjustified |
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| Oct-09-10 | | wals: Rybka 4 x 64 analysis
depth 28 : 20 min :
1. (#22): 55.Kd4 g5 56.Kc5[] Kg6 57.Kd6[] Kf7 58.hxg5 h4 59.Kd7 Kg6 60.Kxe6 Kxg5 61.Kd7 Kg4 62.e6 Kg3 63.e7[] Kxg2 64.e8Q[] h3 65.Qg6+ Kf3 66.Qd3+ Kg4 67.Qf1 h2 68.Ke6 h1Q 69.Qxh1[] Kf4 70.Qe1 2. = (0.00): 55.Kf3 g5 56.g3[] Kg6 57.Ke4[] Kh6 58.Kd4 Kg6 59.Ke4 Kh6 60.Kd4 Kg6 61.Ke4 Kh6 62.Kd4 Kg6 63.Ke4 Kh6 64.Kd4 Kg6 65.Ke4 Kh6 66.Kd4 Kg6 67.Ke4 Kh6 68.Kd4 Kg6 69.Ke4 Kh6 70.Kd4 |
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| Oct-09-10 | | JG27Pyth: <@timothee:> my early g4 wasn't the refutation, but I think below is the refutation of 55 Kd4 g5 56.g3 as winning for White. IMO g3 gives away a critical tempo. (Haven't checked my analysis with an engine, but there has to be a reason Rybka keeps playing 56.Kc5) 55.Kd4 g5 56.g3 Kg6
a) 57.Ke4 g4! 58.Kf4 Kh4 White can make no progress. = b) 57.Kc5? Kf5 58.Kd6 g4! 
C) 57.hxg5? Kxg5 58.Ke4 Kg4 |
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| Oct-09-10 | | WhiteRook48: i went for 58 g4 |
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| Oct-09-10 | | Patriot: I saw the problem with 55.Kf4 which is 55...g5+ as in the game notes and figured 55.Kd4 must be winning. After 55...g5, I figured 56.g3 was still winning but after <JG27Pyth>'s line I have serious doubts. The trick seems to be to ignore it and just play 56.Kc5. |
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| Oct-10-10 | | timothee3331: Now i'm convinced and it seems these engines agree with you as pointed out by wals !
it clearly seems that 56.Kc5! is the only winning line ! |
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| Oct-12-10 | | njchess: I'm amazed that White missed 55. Kd4!! since there are so few moves on the board. After 55. Kd4!!, by not exchanging on g5, White's king gains a winning tempo. |
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sac: 43.Qf1
