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Magnus Carlsen vs Vassily Ivanchuk
20th Amber Tournament (Rapid) (2011) (rapid), Monaco MNC, rd 5, Mar-17
French Defense: Winawer. Advance Variation Moscow Variation (C17)  ·  0-1

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-17-11  acirce: <<haydn20: The analysts on the Amber site thought 12 c3 was already very bad for White. I've forgotten what they recommended. They also didn't seem to like 7 Qxh7 too much--called it "greedy", if I heard right. I hope someone posts some analysis/opinion on this.> Qh7 is just routine in this variation, so no idea about these GM's lol..>

Normally this line goes 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 etc. (Or 7..0-0 etc but that's of course a totally different kind of game.) This immediate 5.Qg4 is something I don't know anything about, but it seems problematic for White that the knight is still pinned when he goes pawn-grabbing.

Mar-17-11  fab4: < Acirce .Normally this line goes 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4 Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 etc. (Or 7..0-0 etc but that's of course a totally different kind of game.) This immediate 5.Qg4 is something I don't know anything about, but it seems problematic for White that the knight is still pinned when he goes pawn-grabbing.>

He asked for analysis . Not the first nine moves lol.. I'm sorry but I've already stated Qh7 was routine.. and you've added absolutely nothing. Just irritate do these kind of posts... but that's net forums .

Mar-17-11  micartouse: <fab4> Slow down, read people's posts carefully, look at the board for a second when you're confused. Consider the possibility that an expert player may have posted intelligently, and you just didn't catch the point.
Mar-17-11  fab4: <micartouse: <fab4> Slow down, read people's posts carefully, look at the board for a second when you're confused. Consider the possibility that an expert player may have posted intelligently, and you just didn't catch the point.>

lol.. here we go. Read the thread numptie. And then consider the point you did'nt catch before you rush in to post aginst someone you don't like .. ok?

Mar-17-11  acirce: It's routine in the main line, it's not routine in this sideline. Already 6.Qxg7 is apparently rare (which is probably because it's bad). A failed opening experiment by Magnus.
Mar-17-11  fab4: <acirce: It's routine in the main line, it's not routine in this sideline. Already 6.Qxg7 is apparently rare (which is probably because it's bad). A failed opening experiment by Magnus.>

Ok.But the point is as soon as white goes for the g7 pawn in the French, taking on h7 after the inevitable Rg8 is routine and almost forced.

Sure, this position has omitted a3.. but the essential dynamics remain.

Mar-17-11  sevenseaman: Carlsen got thumped. How come? Such poor play?
Mar-18-11  jmboutiere: Probably he was surprised with the french and Ivanchuk's position in the tournament decided his opening option.Commentators on ICC connected with the Amber20 site are Yasser Seirawan and Ian Smeets. They said that probably 7...Qa5 was a surprise for Carlsen. After that move Carlsen went wrong, they said.
Mar-18-11  jmboutiere: 14.Ne4 - 3.33
14.Nb5 - 0.75 Rybka 3
16.Nd6 - 1.11
26.Rg8 Rg8 27.Qc5 - 0.81
26.Qe3 is a blunder - 5.18
Mar-18-11  jmboutiere: Sorry I ment 14.Ne4 - 0,33
Mar-18-11  Xeroxx: Wonder what Magnus would have played if 7...cxd4
Mar-18-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingscrusher: fab4: There is nothing routine about how White played with the Qg4 in this game. I think someone is confused by the variation and the specifics. The specifics are that usually White stablises the center first by playing a3 to encourage Bxc3. This line however, is very dangerous for White, when there are still tension issues on c3.

I would definitely recommend checking out Chessgames.com own Opening explorer and see yourself the difference in statistical probabilities for win/draw/loss that occur when White doesn't stabilise the center before going for the g7 pawn.

Mar-18-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingscrusher: I have video annotated this game here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeeU...

Mar-18-11  fab4: @ <Kingcrusher>

I was referring to when white has actually committed himself to taking on g7.. and that then taking on h7 is routine after Rg8..That's all.. and actually answering the original posters question.

Unless you're actually saying Qf6/h6 should've been played after Rg8, I think with all due respect we're getting a case of crossed wires here.And I don't need a lesson in aspects of fluidity regarding the centre in chess openings thanks.

I will check out your annotations on YT..

Mar-21-11  newton296: what the !
Mar-21-11  sevenseaman: Wonderful, balanced and a very instructive video analysis <Kingcrusher>. Thanks.

For me your comprehensive analysis clarifies this <Ivanchuk> game as a landmark win over a very promising player who was caught on a rare wrong foot.

Poor centre handling, freezing his undeveloped LSB and practically taking his Q out of battle for the entire game are the big mistakes. I wonder if <Carlsen> was mesmerized by the mere fact that his Q could stand its ground on the 'a' file.

He will rue his howlers for long. Well played Chuky!

Mar-23-11  Bertorelli: Hmmm... This is pretty interesting. My engine says that this early Qg4 with 7. Qxh7 is bad for white due to 7. ... cxd4. And after it 8.a3 Qa5 9.axb4 Qxa1 10.Nce2 is practically forced and black is better. However here comes 10.... Nbc6 11.Nf3 and each of the five games I found here was won by white.
Mar-27-11  cjgone: Looks like a pretty dubious opening by white.
Mar-27-11  jullios paras: In the opening, seems like white is winning. But in the middle, there's no way out! mate or many pieces will be eaten by vasily!
Mar-18-12  Yafazuda: I think this is the one of the wors't Magnus's games ever
Oct-20-13  tranquilsimplicity: I feel it's gentlemanly to acknowledge the good play by Ivanchuk even though we may be fans of the wunderkind!
Feb-28-14  Everett: <fab4: <acirce: It's routine in the main line, it's not routine in this sideline. Already 6.Qxg7 is apparently rare (which is probably because it's bad). A failed opening experiment by Magnus.> Ok.But the point is as soon as white goes for the g7 pawn in the French, taking on h7 after the inevitable Rg8 is routine and almost forced.

Sure, this position has omitted a3.. but the essential dynamics remain.>

Why everyone was polite and didn't call you on your idiocy is beyond me. Ivanchuk's ability to play ..Qa4 in this line is because of the early omittance of a3 from White, which makes the entire position very different, and which makes Qxh7 "greedy."

White needs to clarify the q-side in the Winawer first, or have something special prepared. Doesn't look like he did.

Jul-21-17  ZackyMuhammad: Mate?
May-04-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: In an interview* on chess24, Carlsen is asked if he would allow himself to be checkmated. <I think itís very personal, but I cannot imagine being in such a situation in a tournament game and not being hugely embarrassed to be there. I once ran into a checkmate by Ivanchuk in Amber rapid, but he gave me checkmate because I didnít see the checkmate-in-one. So no, I wouldnít allow it. Thatís not me!>

Is this the only game Carlsen has been checkmated?

* https://chess24.com/en/read/news/ma...

Nov-26-19  patzer2: After 7. Qxh7, Black's best appears to be 7...cxd4 8. a3 Qa5 9. axb4 Qxa1 10. Nce2 Na6 -+ (-1.44 @ 37 ply, Stockfish 10).

In the follow-up after 7...Qa5, White kept it level for four moves but missed a chance to maintain equality with 12. Qd3! Kb8 13. c3 d4 15. Nxd4 Qxe5+ 16. Qe3 Qxd4 17. axb4 = (-0.13 @ 34 ply, Stockfish 10).

Instead, after 12. c3? dxc3 13. Nxc3 d4 ∓ to -+ it was all down hill for White.

P.S.: Our Opening Explorer indicates Black won all four games recorded with 7. Qxh7? cxd4 ∓ to -+.

Instead of 7. Qxh7, White can try 7. Qh6 Nbc6 ∓ (-0.84 @ 32 ply, Stockfish 10). According to our Opening Explorer, White has an even record with 7. Qh6 ∓ (two wins, two losses and one draw in five games).

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