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| Dec-09-24 | | frankumber: 13… Ne5 is one of the worst moves in Chess Championship history. Ding Dong is more like it. |
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Dec-09-24
 | | FSR: <frankumber: 13… Ne5 is one of the worst moves in Chess Championship history. Ding Dong is more like it.> Say what? 13...Ne5 was an excellent move, by far the best on the board. Gukesh had great difficulty dealing with it. Had Ding followed up with 15...e6! he would have had a large advantage. |
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Dec-09-24
| | FSR: Nakamura has an excellent recap of the game at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoA.... As he points out, 9.c5! rather than 9.d3 was correct. Allowing Black to colonize the c5 square was a big mistake. |
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Dec-09-24
| | FSR: Nakamura opines that if Ding had played 15...e6!, "he would have won this game" and probably the match. |
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Dec-09-24
 | | Check It Out: 15...e6 looks a lot more natural than g6, but its hyperbole to say he would have won the game and maybe the match had he played it. But that's where Nakamura is with his content job: exagerrating for the eyeballs. |
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| Dec-09-24 | | stone free or die: One month ago Carlsen and Howell are reviewing Ding as a player: <
Howell - How do you rate Ding's tactics? At his best very very good.Carlsen - At his best very good, at the moment not very good, most a four out of ten, maybe 3.5. Howell - mmm yeah there have been some uncharacteristic one move blunders one move mistakes right in his uh recent play. ...
>
Later Carlsen talks about his time management:
< okay time management and uh this is a tricky one I guess for players especially if they're suffering with confidence issues but it feels like Ding is often playing a bit too quickly doesn't want the tension doesn't want the tension you know so but his overall time management is not is not great so maybe a five out of 10> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ-... |
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Dec-09-24
| | FSR: <CIO> Nakamura's statement wasn't hyperbole. 15...e6 is very difficult to meet. Stockfish 17 at high depth (46/78) assesses it as -0.95. In other words, a 3500+ player (far stronger than any human), looking at the position far deeper than any human could, can't find a good defense. The d-pawn drops for nothing. |
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| Dec-09-24 | | stone free or die: I'll take <CIO>'s side on this. Being down a pawn makes for a very painful and difficult defense, but not necessarily an automatic win, even for a 2700-2800 GM (against same). Against a 3500-rated engine, ok, that's another matter. |
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Dec-09-24
 | | saffuna: Here's Nakamura's comment on 15...e6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoA...
At 9:20.
A bit exaggerated. But he makes a good point. |
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Dec-09-24
| | FSR: <stone free or die> Not only would Gukesh have had a horrible position, but both players were in time pressure. It would have been a lot easier for Ding to find good moves in that position than it would have been for Gukesh. But obviously we'll never know what would have happened. It certainly would have been a lot more pleasant for Ding than what happened in the game. I still can't believe that Ding spent an hour on his first five moves. He spent 40 minutes to play 4...Nf6, a perfectly normal (and best) move that he'd played before and that gives Black at least equality. And about 20 minutes to respond to the blockbuster 5.a3!! World-record-bad clock management (and I should know). |
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Dec-09-24
| | FSR: It's weird how central knights on c5 (of both colors) were to the game. Black's knights on c5 and e5 gave Gukesh fits. But later his own knight romped into c5 and crushed Ding. |
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Dec-09-24
 | | Ron: Well, I blunder much more often. One time in a casual game in the 1990s I missed a mate in two. |
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| Dec-09-24 | | stone free or die: Let's be clear, Nakamura has a great grasp on the game, and clearly is good at quickly going through variations. No question. But he's prone to hyperbole, and saying both the game and the match turned on 15...g6 vs 15...e6 is one such example. But Naka kinda contradicts his own analysis just a bit later... I.e. he acknowledges Ding was still in it when he later says Ding still could have still won the game with 17...Qb8 instead of 17...Qd6. In fact, Naka actually says it was at this point that the game started to spin out of control (and not 15...g6, huh?). Good analysis, all the same. Just a little too souped up if you ask me, but heck nobody did! Besides, for Naka it's a living, and he has to pop titles like this: <LET HIM COOOOOOOOK!!!!! Gukesh vs Ding Game 11> . |
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| Dec-09-24 | | stone free or die: Carlsen says he wouldn't criticize Ding for 15...g6 https://youtu.be/uB3U7K6D6p0?t=1008 |
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| Dec-09-24 | | thebully99: Ding's tactical vision has gotten worse since 2023.... |
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Dec-09-24
 | | perfidious: <CIO: 15...e6 looks a lot more natural than g6, but its hyperbole to say he would have won the game and maybe the match had he played it....> Of course this is bollocks.
Maybe it will impress average players who want to be impressed, but I can find this sort of 'content' anywhere on YouTube should I so desire. |
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Dec-09-24
 | | Teyss: <optimal play: (...) In that regard, it wasn’t necessarily the clock that beat him.> It did play a part, to what extent is debatable. IIRC Gukesh had approx 13 minutes left before the fatal 28th move, versus 8 for Ding. And Gukesh was putting pressure on the Qside so it was stressful for Ding to find the best defence. If he had found it, he would have had a decent game. Would he have managed with more time? Unsure, but at least it's pretty clear he wouldn't have blundered. |
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Dec-09-24
| | Teyss: Agree that whilst 15...e6 would have given Ding a better game, it would have been far from won. Engine eval is one thing, human OTB is another: look for instance how Ding couldn't find the best continuations in games 5 and 6. Didn't understand at all this g6-h5-Bh6 setup: after the WQ is gone the game is on the Qside and the light squares notably because of the b7 Pawn, so Black's DSB is offside aiming at void. Nakamura is a good player but he's prone to overstatement when commenting. It's an easy bias to exaggerate just to make a point, especially on internet. |
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Dec-09-24
| | perfidious: The clock plays a role and managing it is part of the game. |
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| Dec-09-24 | | whiteshark: Time trouble is blunder time.
-- Alexander Kotov |
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| Dec-09-24 | | Cassandro: <Time trouble is blunder time.
-- Alexander Kotov>
Alexander Kotov..Russia's Captain Obvious. |
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| Dec-09-24 | | James J. Henderson: In the position after White's 15th move:
click for larger viewevidently 15...e6 is better than the move played in the game, 15...g6, but the former does not seem to give a winning advantage. After 15...e6, Stockfish suggests this continuation: 16.b6 Qd6 17.Nd2 Nexd3 18.Qxd6 Bxd6 19.Rb1 Ke7 20.Nb3 Nxc1 21.Rdxc1 Rd7 22.Nxd4 a4 23.Re1 Rhd8 24.Nf5+ Kf6 25.Nxd6 Rxd6 26.Rec1, leaving us here: 
click for larger viewThis endgame should be a draw.
I think it's fair to say that 15...e6 would have given Black a much more pleasant position but not a winning advantage. |
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Dec-15-24
 | | Joshka: Does 14...Ne6 help black? |
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Dec-15-24
 | | Troller: <Joshka: Does 14...Ne6 help black?> I am not sure Black is in trouble at this time; at least the engine prefers Black! That said, 14..Ne6 15.Qe4 threatens to take on b7 and at the same time gets ready for f2-f4-f5 which looks very scary for Black. I assume Ding would have considered this, as Qe4 is somewhat natural answer to ..Ne6, and looking at it now, I understand his reluctance to go for that line. |
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Dec-15-24
| | Joshka: <Troller: Not sure black is in trouble at this point> very valid point, sure makes sense...my patzer brain always seems to want to attack the queen when it seems, in my mind anyway, to have come out too early...thanks |
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