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Mar-22-04 | | AgentRgent: <refutor: i have a grob question...is 1.g4 Nf6 2.g5 playable for black?> Well Refutor, I finally got the chance this past weekend to put my "Anti-Grob" study to use. I've recreated the game here from my memory (don't have the scoresheet handy), but I believe it's correct. Chessmaster's annotations didn't really find much to quibble over until the end. Though I might have won faster, I was nervous because I have a tendency to blunder in won positions. It was a fun game (because I won!) see what you all think. [White "Grob-meister"]
[Black "AgentRgent"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. g4 Nf6 2. g5 Ng8 3. Bg2 h6 4. d3 (d4 was probably better) hxg5 5. Bxg5 g6 6. c4 Bg7 7. Qb3 c6 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. Bd2 Qc7 10. Nf3 d6 11. d4 Bh3 12. Rg1 Bxg2 13. Rxg2 Nd7 14. Bf4 Qb6 15. Qc2 O-O-O (I didn't like the look of 15...Bxd4 16. Rxg6 fxg6 17. Qxg6+) 16. Na4 Qa5+ 17. Bd2 Qh5 18. O-O-O Bh6 19. Rdg1 Bxd2+ 20. Qxd2 Qh6 21. Qxh6 Nxh6 22. e4 e5 23. d5 cxd5 24. cxd5 Kb8 25. Kb1 Rc8 26. Nd2 Ng8 27. f3 Ngf6 28. Nc3 Rh4 (I should have played the prophylactic a6 here, and later the rook should go to h3 not h4) 29. Nb5 Ne8 (preventing me from doubling the rooks on the h file, thus 28...a6 would have been better) 30. Rc1 Rxc1+ 31. Kxc1 a6 32. Na3 b5 33. Nb3 Rh3 (proving that 28...Rh4 was a wasted tempo) 34. Rf2 g5 35. Na5 Nc5 36. Nc6+ Kb7 (This is probably bad, because Nd8+ picks up the f7 pawn, but even Chessmaster doesn't want to play Nd8+, I don't know why) 37. Kd2 f6 38. Nc2 g4 39. Ne3 (The first big blunder, Ke2 was needed) gxf3 40. Ke1 Nxe4 (I have no idea why I didn't play Nd3+ to win the exchange) 41. Rc2 (Rf1 is much better) f2+ 42. Ke2 Rxe3+! 43. Kxe3 f1=Q 44. Nd8+ Kb6 45. Rc6+ Ka7 46. Kxe4 f5+ 47. Ke3 f4+ 48. Ke4 Qe2+ 49. Kf5 Qd3+ 50. Ke6 f3 51. Kd7 Nf6+ 52. Kc8 Qf5+ 53. Ne6 Nxd5 54. Rxd6 Nb6+ 55. Kc7 Qf7+ 56. Kc6 Qb7+ 57. Kc5 Qd5+!! (I worked through the knight moves 4 times to make sure this sacrifice worked!) 58. Rxd5 Nxd5 59. Ng5 f2 60. Resign 0-1 |
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Mar-22-04 | | ughaibu: I think your opponent played the opening very badly, 4.d4, 7.Nc3, 11.h3 all look like improvements. Nevertheless Nf6-g8 and h6 is a nice idea. |
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Mar-22-04 | | shr0pshire: I agree in part with Ughaibu. It seems like you both were playing very passively. AgentRegent, I didn't see any development when you went in for the attack, and the attacked seemed very transparent (I am referring to the initial attack circa move 9). Also I too think that white blundered in the opening a couple times. Let me see if I can give some suggestions, I like to play the grob a lot in blitz, and I have favorable results. 4. g6, why wait to trade it off, I would push it one spot further and either gambit the pawn to mess up black's kingside if black takes, or take the next move with gxf6. I think that is something that could have led to a strong attack against you, especially because the grob is all about the light colored diagonals, and by pushing the pawn you are creating an open light colored diagonal, at least temporarily. Next, like Ughaibu says, I think that 4. d3 is a crucial error by white. this essentially wastes a move for white, and allowed you to grab the middle if you so chose. 7. Qb3 is also a mistake. At first I thought it was a decent move, because I thought that the queen and the bishop were going to tag team that dark diagonal and do some damage. Then I saw that the reason was to protect the b3 square and I was disapppointed. A better move would have been simply 7.d4 what he should have played earlier. Because if he had left the queen on qd1, then it would have been there to protect the d4 square. Again another wasted move by white. I think by move 18 I think white is better. White occupies more space, and his pieces are more coordinated. Up until that point black trades (and I can't figure out why on move 12, the bishops are traded, that seemed to waste time for black. Also by move 18 all of white's pieces are devleoped and in the game. Black can't say that. Due to the space advantage and the development edge, i think white is better here. Not to mention how coordinated white's pieces are. What I am trying to say AgentRegent, is it wasn't your opening that won you the game. It was your middle game and endgame play. Since I think white is better on move 18 I think white's opening might have been better, because you were passive in the opening. That is just my two cents worth. Good game and Congrats on the win! |
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Mar-22-04 | | AgentRgent: <shr0pshire> My play seems passive because my intent in the opening was to minimize his tactical threats while maximizing my positional play. The trade of bishops on move 12 was to reduce the attacking potential white had aimed toward the Queenside, where I planned to place my King, as well as to further weaken h2. By move 18 white's pieces are better placed than blacks, which is why I traded off. With fewer pieces on the board, his development didn't matter as much as my better pawn structure. As for 4.g6 It's not a gambit since black cannot afford to play 4...fxg6?! because of 5. Be4! So black plays 4...f5 and the pawn will remain a target for following play. |
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Mar-22-04 | | Benjamin Lau: Interesting game, but I would have preferred to play ...h6 first (if I was planning to play really hypermodern) without the Brooklyn-ish start with ...Ng8. |
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Mar-23-04 | | shr0pshire: I just put this in fritz to see if my idea was good or not, and it came out pretty decent. Fritz says that g6 is the best option by about .2 of a pawn. Since you mentioned that it isn't a gambit, white has everything to gain by it, because it ruins black's pawn structure so bad. And says that after 4. g6 white is up .34 of a pawn. Thus, white has an advantage out of the opening, if you play that line. And with the position, can have a nice attacking game. And probably lead into a king hunt very soon. |
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Mar-23-04 | | refutor: <agentrgent> good for you to try out a new idea! i'm tempted to try out the Brooklyn grob myself as black :) |
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Mar-26-04 | | tacticsjokerxxx: Any comments on 1.c3 ?
what's this opening called? |
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Mar-26-04 | | morphyvsfischer: <tacticsjokerxxx> that is called the Saragossa Opening. It doesn't seem to have a point since d4 can be played right away. |
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Mar-26-04 | | tacticsjokerxxx: what do you mean d4 can be played right away? |
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Mar-26-04 | | ruylopez900: <tactics> The move c3 is usually only ever played to prepare d4 since it takes away the Knight's best place in te opening. |
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Mar-28-04 | | tacticsjokerxxx: the Knight's best place is f2, but I guess you mean the queen's knight's best place, which is c3 in the opening yes... well.. I play 1.c3-(x) 2.c4! sometimes to play white 'as black', for example 1.c3-e5, 2.c4 and we have a _true_ reversed sicilian for example. the "reversed sicilian with an extra tempo" (i.e. c4-e5) doesn't work very well. If black plays 1.c3-d5 then d4 can be played as you said but c4 works there too. |
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Mar-28-04 | | nikolaas: How about Williamsgambit (1.♙f4 ♙d5 2.♙e4)? Is there somebody who played it already? What was the result? |
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Mar-28-04 | | GoodKnight: <nikolaas>
Two people have played it. These are the games:
Myers vs NN, 1985
Christoph Lauche vs D Koenig, 2001 |
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Mar-28-04 | | nikolaas: Strange to see such "wild-west" games in our times. Nowadays, it ends normally with a long, long endgame... |
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Mar-29-04 | | ruylopez900: <tacticsjoker> Against 1...d5 why not play 2.c4 and have a colours reversed Old Benoni? |
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Mar-29-04 | | BiLL RobeRTiE: "the "reversed sicilian with an extra tempo" (i.e. c4-e5) doesn't work very well." What the hell? Why would it be worse??? After 1. c4 e5 White wins 35.3 and Black wins 27.5 and after 1. e4 c5 Black wins 30.4 while White wins 34.7. Statistics and logic would indicate that 1. c4 e5 is a lot better than 1. c3 e5 2. c4?! |
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Mar-29-04 | | AgentRgent: I believe what he meant is that playing 1. c4 e5 The Same Way you would play a black Sicilian doesn't work very well. Obviously c4 e5 is playable for white, but you can't play it exactly as you would the black side of a Sicilian. The extra tempo forces you to disclose your intentions sooner. |
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Mar-29-04 | | waddayaplay: To spice it up, you could play an early a3 to get into a reversed najdorf. Or Kan. |
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Mar-29-04 | | BiLL RobeRTiE: That makes a bit more sense, I guess. I'm not really sure myself why more people play an extra-tempo Kan or Najdorf, i.e. 1. c4 e5 2. d3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. a3 d5. |
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Mar-30-04 | | tacticsjokerxxx: <lopez> correct.. against 1.-d5 you can play 2.c4 and have a colors reversed old benoni which is fine, according to theory the best way to play the old benoni I believe is to pass the pawn, so the best move is 2.-d4, that's pretty funny, both white and black have moved the same pawn twice in the opening and that's the best move. so much for the "don't move the same piece twice"-rule. Are there any famous old benoni games? |
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Mar-30-04 | | tacticsjokerxxx: <Agent and Robertie> correct that's what I meant.. and if you play 1.c3-e5, 2.c4! then you can cut your opening theory 'in half' (i.e. you only need opening theory for black), since, as Agent said, the extra tempo forces one to disclose ones intentions sooner, then 1.c3 is good, but I wonder if something else can be done with the extra tempo, like 1.a3 or 1.h3 followed by 2.c4, the question is what the value of a3/h3 will be in the following position, the psychological value of c3-c4 is probably better. |
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Mar-30-04 | | tacticsjokerxxx: By the way Tarrasch, Leonhardt and someone else played 1.c3 in a triangle-tournament where it was the compulsory first move. Otherwise 1.c3 has been advocated by a spaniard called Juncoza. |
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Mar-30-04 | | nikolaas: I think the psygological effect of 1.♙c2-c3 ♙e7-e5 2.♙c3-c4 is very important especially if you're playing a blitz game. |
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Mar-30-04 | | Gower: Yes, that would have rather a big psychological effect on me! |
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