< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·
|Aug-26-03|| ||BeautyInChess: Look at the winning percentage for black in this opening. It's higher than white at least in the games in this database. I'm surprised that it has not been kibitzed about more. |
|Aug-26-03|| ||Shadout Mapes: I think this opening is a little positionally suspect due to the gaping hole black leaves on e5, and the pawn wall is rather inflexible. If Botvinnik played it though, I'm sure it's just fine. |
|Aug-30-03|| ||DTI: who cares of its "suspect due to the gaping hole black leaves on e5", its hard to take advantage of it without compromising one's position. I play it for black as well as for white, it can be very effective and is not as weakening is it may seem. |
|Aug-30-03|| ||Benjamin Lau: <DTI>
Lots of people care. e5 becomes a nice outpost for opposing knights who can no longer be chased away by pawns. The formation, while strong, also leaves a lot of dark squares weak. That said, it's probably not unsound, and it's just a matter of taste whether you want to play it or not.
|Aug-30-03|| ||SicilianDragon: While the more "classical" Stonewall Dutch with the bishop e7 may be somewhat suspect, the Modern Stonewall Dutch, with the bishop on d6, is much more popular today and is considered to be possibly the most solid variation in the whole Dutch system. The problem is that if you play 1. d4 f5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 e6, many players will play 4. Bf4 to prevent the dark-squared bishop from coming to d6 or to trade it off if it does. This is why players who play the "Modern" Stonewall often prefer to arrive via a QGD. However, if the bishop gets to d6 with no problem, black is in very good shape. |
|Sep-01-03|| ||DTI: Benjamin Lau, im aware of black's dark square weaknesses i was just pointing out its difficult for white to take advantage of black's weaknesses without precise play.... |
|Oct-26-03|| ||Helloween: Black only really has to be wary of the typical b3, Ba3 maneouever, which aims to trade off Black's strong Bishop. The Dutch formation with f5, e6, d6 Nf6, Be7, 0-0, and Qe8, as Tal used to play it in the 50's and 60's, seems to be more energetic and offer better kingside attacking chances. |
|Oct-26-03|| ||colinrpayne: I seem to remember a game or two of Short's where he avoided the problems of the b3, Ba3 manoevre by delaying d5. If white persists with his idea, then after Bxa3, Nxa3, black plays d6 and puts his pawns of black squares. I eventually gave up this opening for another reason - I was continually getting squeezed after Bf4, Bg5 by white and didn't get the stonewall in at all. |
|Jul-27-04|| ||Giancarlo: Well if you look at Botvinniks play with this opening you can see he did quite well with it. |
|Oct-14-04|| ||Giancarlo: Black's choice of 7..c6 instead of 7..nc6 seems intresting. Does anyone know if there is a gambit followed up in this line with 7..dxc4? |
|Jul-06-05|| ||MUG: This 'Stonewall' formation reminds me of another famous wall: the Maginot Line! Both can be defeated in the same way - just go around it! :-)|
|Jul-06-05|| ||farrooj: I love the stonewall for its solidity. But I just don't know the theory to use it. It's a very cool formation.
But is it refuted?|
|Jul-06-05|| ||paul dorion: <farroj> Botvinnik and Larsen liked it , Petrosian was a Stonewall (and Dutch in general) killer so a good look at their games may tell you what to do or not.|
|Jul-06-05|| ||farrooj: thanks :)|
|Jul-06-05|| ||Giancarlo: I wouldn't say it's a refuted opening. Botvinnik took some impressive wins with the system, and no losses. Some wins against rather strong players. I agree that Botvinnik is a model Dutch player.|
|Nov-14-05|| ||tpstar: ConLaMismaMano-1863 (Ajedrez 21, 11/12/05) [Fritz 7]: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 f5 [last book move] 4. h3 Nf6 5. g4 [5. Bg5 Be7 =] fg 6. hg Bb4 [6 ... Nxg4 7. e3 Nf6 8. Bd3 =] 7. Bg5 [7. Bg2 Nxg4 8. e4 Nf6 ] c6 8. Qc2 h6 [8 ... dc 9. Nf3 =] 9. 0-0-0 [9. Qg6+ Kf8 ] Qe7 10. e4 Bxc3 11. bxc3 [11. e5 Bxb2+ 12. Qxb2 Qf8 13. exf6 hxg5 14. Rxh8 Qxh8 15. cd cd 16. Bb5+ Nc6 17. Bxc6+ bxc6 =] de [11 ... Qa3+!? 12. Kb1 Nxe4 ] 12. Bg2 [12. Bxf6 Qxf6 13. Qxe4 c5 ] Rf8 13. Bxf6 [ ] Qxf6 14. Nh3 e5 15. Qxe4 Kf7 16. de Qg6 17. Qxg6+ Kxg6 18. Be4+ [18. Rd6+ Kf7 19. g5 Nd7 20. gh gh ] Kf7 19. g5 Bxh3 20. Rxh3 hxg5 21. Rg3 Nd7?? [21 ... Na6 22. Rxg5 Nc5 ] 22. Rxd7+ [ ] and White won (1-0, 34).|
Nice game. I was surprised 14 ... e5 went unnoticed by Fritz, since it seems to drop both e Pawns, then Black self-destructed by trading Queens.
|Nov-14-05|| ||ConLaMismaMano: Thanks a lot, tpstar, for taking the trouble of running through Fritz my game, in the following days i'll look carefully at the analysis you provided me!|
|Mar-07-08|| ||get Reti: The stonewall is now my favorite way to respond to 1.d4. The reasons why I think 1.d4 is stronger than 1.e4 is that after 1.d4 the pawn is protected, and also that after 1.d4, white can automatically establish two pawns side-by-side, with c4, no matter what black plays. If black can't stop c4, then he should try to stop e4. In the stonewall, white is almost permanently stopped from playing e4, and black has two strong points at d5 and f5. White's expansion possibilities are limited. Black can also try to post a knight at e4. The main reason against this line is that white can play Ne5, but the fact that black can somewhat neutralize it with Nbd7 and the above reasons I think compensates for it.|
|May-23-08|| ||gambitking: I like this opening as black. It's in the spirit of Ol' Blue Light, Stonewall Jackson; leading a fearless counterattack on the Kingside second only to the Greco Counterattack|
The Gambit King
|May-23-08|| ||ganstaman: <gambitking> How do you avoid Dutch, Stonewall with Ba3 (A94), which looks very good for white?|
|May-23-08|| ||moronovich: <ganstaman> Usually by -Qe7.
The swedish GM Karlson imployed a system with an early Nc6 , ready to answer Ba3 with Nb4.Could look silly ,but it works.|
Ulf Andersson - Lars Karlsson is one game.
|May-23-08|| ||moronovich: Sorry . All above is reasonable , but only with the black bishop on d6.|
|Jul-28-08|| ||FilipinoMaster: The Sicilian for d4 lol!|
|Nov-08-09|| ||FICSwoodpusher: Why are there no games in the Dutch Stonewall where black plays Bd6?|
|Nov-08-09|| ||FHBradley: Because that's a different variation of the Dutch Stonewall.|
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