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May-29-09
 | | keypusher: <blacksburg> Following up on <returnoftheking>'s point, I remember some opening book I saw long ago noted that in that Tarrasch line you cite, Black has a Sicilian pawn structure where White's e-pawn has been traded for Black's d-pawn (as happens a lot in the Sicilian). So in the Tarrasch Black has the built-in queenside minority attack that he also has in the Sicilian. Of course he would have the same formation in the Scandinavian after ...c5, ...cxd4, but White often plays c2-c4 first. |
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| May-29-09 | | SirChrislov: The Scandinavian is being played in tournaments all over the globe. Some recent 2009 games from the 8th Asian Continent Championship in my favorite line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4: C Bernales vs Rulp Ylem Jose, 2009, Van Huy Nguyen vs Deniel Causo, 2009, C Camacho vs Rulp Ylem Jose, 2009. Blk loses the last two but you gotta admit they're hard fought til the end. Here's two for you 2... Qxd5 players: I Kharisma Sukandar vs M Batkhuyag, 2009, Aaron Chua vs Edgardo Garma, 2009. |
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May-29-09
| | keypusher: It's funny, in the old books it's called the Center Counter, which is about the uncoolest name for a chess opening ever. I wonder when the term Scandinavian came into vogue, and if the change was the work of someone trying to make the opening more fashionable. That seems to be the case with whoever started calling the Philidor the Lion, although the Philidor has got to be one of the least carnivorous defenses around. I think the Anteater would be a better name: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOm... |
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| May-30-09 | | SimonWebbsTiger: I'll chip in my 2 cents and point in the direction of John Watson's books on Modern Strategy (published by Gambit). He discusses the tempo dance of the queen in the Scandinavian (which I still call the Centre-Counter!). The interesting, fun lines these days seem to come after takes, Nc3 then 3...Qd6 followed by a K-side fianchettoe. There's even a whole survey on this in the New in Chess Yearbook 90! Apropos the French Tarrasch line with 4...Q:d5, I don't trust that line after some horribly strong novelties introduced by e.g. Michael Adams (probably the only leading GM who still plays 3. Nd2); Watson's Play the French seemed to creak everywhere. The isolated QP line is perfectly fine for Black (solid, the endgame is not lost) but a non-starter for playing for a win, unless your name is Korchnoi or Uhlmann! |
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| May-30-09 | | returnoftheking: I don't know much about the lion; but I think it's a different way to handle philidor positions then what was played before. So there was actually a change in plans and lines. |
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May-30-09
| | keypusher: <rotk>
Judge for yourself.
http://www.vanrekom.nl/thelion/inde... |
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| May-30-09 | | returnoftheking: Thanks, I know the site. The Lion is/was quite popular in my country-being "reinvented" by dutch players.
I believe one of their ideas was to attack on the K-wing-its more agressive then the usual phillidor and black often plays h6 g5 g4 and brings his queenside knight to g6/the kingside (claw variation of course).
As far as I know the "standard" philidor positions are more sedate-and probably more correct. Still it can be annoying to meet the lion on the board. |
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| May-30-09 | | parisattack: Gunderdam's Opening has some very similar ideas to the Lion - 1. e4, e5; 2. Nf3, Qe7. |
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May-30-09
| | keypusher: <rotk> <I believe one of their ideas was to attack on the K-wing-its more agressive then the usual phillidor and black often plays h6 g5 g4 and brings his queenside knight to g6/the kingside (claw variation of course). > Nimzowitsch and Marco (and doubtless others) were doing that 90 years ago. I think some of their games may even be on that site. |
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May-30-09
| | keypusher: <rotk> <I believe one of their ideas was to attack on the K-wing-its more agressive then the usual phillidor and black often plays h6 g5 g4 and brings his queenside knight to g6/the kingside (claw variation of course). > Marco, and doubtless others, were doing that 90 years ago. I think some of the games may even be on that site. |
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| May-31-09 | | returnoftheking: I looked it up and indeed there are some games by the likes of Breyer and Nimzowitsj (and indeed Marco). Modern twist to the philidor? |
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| Jun-25-09 | | Poisonpawns: After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 either Qxd5 or Nf6 leads to adv for white by playing for d4 and c4.Gaining space.It is not a huge adv but it is the same type of annoying long term adv that white gets in the exchange variation of the alekhines defense. |
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| Jul-14-09 | | blacksburg: <After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 either Qxd5 or Nf6 leads to adv for white by playing for d4 and c4.> actually, in the 2...Qxd5 main lines, white doesn't play c4, he usually plays Nc3 first, c2 pawn can actually be a target for black's f5 bishop sometimes. white can also play Nf3 and eschew the Nc3 tempo move, and retain the option of building the d4/c4 center, but this is less common. i guess it's just so tempting to hit the queen with Nc3. <It is not a huge adv but it is the same type of annoying long term adv that white gets in the exchange variation of the alekhines defense.> it's the same type of annoying edge that white gets in <every> opening. |
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| Jul-18-09 | | SirChrislov: It's true that white gets a small advantage in most openings, but it's not enough to win. and it takes a master to retain that small edge up to the endgame.
we know the defences that masters consider give a very close battle to white's opening advantage, and in many cases can turn the tables, the Sicilian, various defences to the Ruy, the KID, Slav are very heavily played in top level. now the beauty of club level play is black can experiment with any defence and he wins almost as much as white.
I once saw a guy who was crushing experts with 1.e4 f5??!! and
I drew a master with a prepared line of the 2...Nf6 Scandinavian. after the game he said I was winning the whole time up until an endgame blunder.
so don't be afraid of white's opening advantage, it's almost insignificant. Quote from Bobby Fischer:
"The turning piont in my carrer occured when I realized that black has to play for the win, instead of trying to secure a drawn position".
enough said. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | HAPERSAUD: The Scandinavian is pure evil and it and the French defence are why I started dominating with queens pawn openings as White :) however I've noticed a lot of masters I'm my area are playing the Scandinavian and even though i have great success with my queens pawn repertoire I would love nothing better than to catch them off guard with the 1.e4 d5 2.nc3. Dxe4 3.nxe4 Bf5 lines or something else. You just to strike more fear by making my repertoire unpredictable! Can anyone point me to an research in these lines? The chessgames database isn't reliable as the games usually aren't of a high quality in these obscure sidelines |
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| Jul-29-09 | | SirChrislov: I looked around but there aren't many games in this variation. like you said, obscure sidelines. Here's an interesting transposition:
Morozevich vs Radjabov, 2007 |
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| Jul-29-09 | | SirChrislov: <HAPERSAUD>
After 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3,
I'd be worried about 2...d5; now the Knight has to go to, I don't know, let's say 3.Nce2 with K-side fianchetto; but after 3...c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.g3 e5 6.Bg2 Nf6 7.d3 Be7, blk has more space and stands better in my humble opinion. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | MaxxLange: <1 e4 d5 2 Nc3 d4>
This is a main line of the "Dunst Opening", 1 Nc3 d5 2 e4 d4 3 Ne2. White intends Nf3, Ng3, 0-0, d3, and playing on the Kingside. It i a pretty decent opening, in fact. I think Black is OK in this transposition, though. Compare the position after 1 e4 d5 2 Nc3 dxe4 3 Nxe4 Bf5 to the Caro-Kann, Two Knights Variation: 1 e4 c6 2 Nc3 d5 3 Nf3 dxe4 4 Nxe4 Bf5 In the Caro version, White has the very useful move Nf3 in, while Black has the solid but not urgent move c6 in. In the Scandinavian version, White does not threaten Ne5 yet, and Black can still play ...c5 in one tempo as needed. The main advantage of 2 Nc3!? is practical, not theoretical: most 1...d5 players don't know it, and they often will underestimate it |
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| Jul-29-09 | | MaxxLange: I mean, among below master level players |
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| Jul-30-09 | | blacksburg: <The main advantage of 2 Nc3!? is practical, not theoretical: most 1...d5 players don't know it, and they often will underestimate it> you know, some of us lazy scandinavian players have nevertheless prepared the opening to some degree, and lick our chops when we see stuff like 2.Nc3. :) |
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| Jul-30-09 | | ToTheDeath: What do you guys think about the fianchetto against the Scandinavian, followed by a queenside pawn advance as played by Robert Hess here: R Hess vs R Gonzalez, 2005 I've had decent results with it- in the main lines I always had trouble converting the slight edge in space and development- black's position is just too solid. |
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| Jul-30-09 | | blacksburg: <What do you guys think about the fianchetto against the Scandinavian, followed by a queenside pawn advance> i think it is very underrated, and it gave me a lot of issues when i used to play the B01. i was certainly more afraid of it than the main line, which i never had problems with. |
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| Jul-30-09 | | HAPERSAUD: Hmmm I'll just have to play my ultra deep technical Karpov style chess, 1.nf3!!! Unbeatable :) Thank you for answering my questions and personally I would rather not get into the boring variations of the Scandinavian so I'll stick with my transpositional repertoire and just book up on heavy theory, who knows if my chess tournament debut goes well next year some of my games may be in the database :) |
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| Jul-30-09 | | blacksburg: perhaps you may give the B01 a try as black? :) |
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| Jul-30-09 | | HAPERSAUD: <blacksberg> no thanks I have played every major opening as White and as black and have to come to the umderstanding that ruthless counter attacking chess is more to my style, so the sicilian najdorf scheveningen move orders are more to my taste and I have a personal hatred of the Scandinavian because a weak contemporary of mine plays it.. And even though I can beat all of his queens pawn defences I cannot crack the Scandinavian. I just want to break his spirit by defeating his last defence in a serious game. It would really make my day :) alas I will continue to look for a refutation of this opening |
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