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| Jun-09-05 | | Catfriend: Excellent line!
I don't see right now any refutation. I"ll think about it..
BTW an additional pretty line for white is 20..Kd8 21.Ne6+ Ke8 22.Rg5! Qh6 23.Nxg7+ Kf7 24.Rg3 with won position. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | zorro: <Catfriend> In your game White's 3. cxd5 is quite poor, the strongest being there 3. Nc3. I think<IMlday>'s move order is best if you want to play a Chigorin but you must be ready to allow 2. e4 |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Catfriend: <zorro> It's not a game, it's just an attempt by <chesschatalogy> to refute the Chigorin. He claims 3.cxd5 and the line after that is a way to get a won game. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | acirce: <1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 Bg4 9.f3 Bxf3 10.gxf3 Qxf3 11.Nxd4 Qxh1 12.Nxc6 Qxh2> 13.Qg4 Nf6 14.Qxg7 Qh4+ 15.Kd1 Rg8 16.Qxf6 Qxf6 17.Bxf6 seems good enough for White, his bishop pair is going to rule. NCO gives instead 12..Nf6 13.Na5  It gives the simple 8..Nge7 9.Nxd4 as  and I would agree. It's not an overwhelming edge but it's pleasant to play such positions for White, you can try to win and you shouldn't lose. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Chesschatology: Here is my improvement in the above line in my brave and foolish quest to refute the Chigorin: 15 Bb5 instead of Nd4.
Refute it everyone... you know you want to! |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Chesschatology: <aicre> Thanks for your analysis.
The point is that cxd5 doesn't REFUTE the Chigorin but it does make it very unappealing against a well armed opponent. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Chesschatology: p.s. I have now downloaded Winboard and will no longer need to perform analyses by blindfold. This won't improve my skills much, but it does mean I no longer have an excuse for missing cheapos... |
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| Jun-09-05 | | AgentRgent: <Catfriend> If 20...Kd8 I was thinking 21. Qf4 where 21...Rd7 gets black mated (22. Qb8+ Ke7 23. Bb4+) or 21...f5 22. Rg5 wins the Queen for a Rook! |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Catfriend: <acirce> thanks! Hmmm so should I re-gear myself? I"ll work on it:) |
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| Jun-09-05 | | acirce: <it does make it very unappealing against a well armed opponent.> It seems you're right, unless Black loves defending a slightly worse position where the most he can hope for is draw. On the other hand not everyone would like a line like this as White either, but would prefer something sharper that gives *both* better winning chances. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Chesschatology: <Catfriend>
Do what Moro does... 1. d4 d5
2. Nc3 Nc6 or 2 c4 e5!
The Chigorin/ Albin combo has struck terror into GMs at the highest leve. All you need to do is play as well as he does, and both openings are fully playable. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Catfriend: Even better is just to be as good as Kasparov. All openings are fully playable.. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Chesschatology: <aicre> Yes, true. But I think that what makes this line really evil is that the average Chigorin player wants to leave the book and create original interesting positions with counter-play and dynamic compensation for the bishop pair, and this line is (1) Simple and relatively easy to learn.
(2) Frustrates all of the Chigorin player's aims by creating a technical, clear positional game. (3) Black's worse. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Chesschatology: <Catfriend>
Alas I admit that I used to play the Chigorin and this line was the one that put me off it. I had just learnt reams of theory and then BLAM. I went to the book I had bought (By Angus Dunnington) and looked for the line.
NOWHERE. That was when I stopped buying openings monographs on dodgy openings. |
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Jun-09-05
 | | IMlday: After 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 Bg4 seems to equalize. 3.g3 is probably slightly better for White after 3..Bf5 and clearly better after 3..bg4. |
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| Jun-09-05 | | Catfriend: After 3.Nf3 Bg4 it's transposed to Chigorin, main line. If black's prepared, it can even be better for him for psychological reasons. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: I'll be really schizophrenic now and try to find a way for Black to improve, although I doubt I'll manage.
What about 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3. cd Qxd5
4. e3 e5 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Bd2 BxN 7. BxB e4?
For example 8.b3 Nf6 9. Bc4 Qg5
Or 9. Ne2 Bg4.
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: On closer inspection, this is absolutely grim for Black. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: Actually, thinking about it, after 1. d4 d5 2. c4, c6 seems like a reasonable try, or possibly e6, but that appears to block the bishop. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | hintza: 2...c6 is the Slav Defence, and 2...e6 is a regular Queen's Gambit Declined leading to many different variations. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: tell <Hintza> Oh!
Sorry I think that like my fellow Englishman Nigel Short so often does I seem to have lost my ironic tone in translation. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | hintza: Well you could have made it more ironic :-) |
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: lol :)
OK,
But first can you explain how the horse shaped one moves? |
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| Jun-10-05 | | hintza: See, that's much better! |
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: With your help, one day I will be understood by people of all cultures and creeds! What we were pondering was an extremely annoying line against the Chigorin (see above) which more or less puts it out of business against 2.c4 unless you fancy a dull and slightly worse semi-ending with no winning chances and the opportunity to be tortured by your opponent for 70-80 moves. |
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