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| Jun-10-05 | | hintza: Yes, I noticed your rather interesting Chogorin discussions. It's not a line I play with either Black or White however. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | Chesschatology: The line here was shown to me by GM Aaron Summerscale who used to coach at my school, when I told him I was thinking of taking up the Chig. He advised otherwise, and suggested the Slav. The only problem is I don't like the modern piece sac lines after Ne5 which lead to a position that is much easier for White to play. As such I have been looking at the Smyslov variation which is quite interesting. |
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| Jun-10-05 | | aw1988: chessgames, Alekhine-Colle 1925 is missing. |
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| Jun-11-05 | | Catfriend: Ok, I looked at it and I'm leaving the Chigorin... Sniff sniff *crying and sobbing*. I guess the Slav is my choice now! |
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| Jun-11-05 | | e4Newman: <Chesschatology: > Could you please describe the Smyslov for me. I am not familiar with it :) |
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Jun-11-05
 | | Eric Schiller: <slav> I assume the Smyslov refers to the ...Na6 plan. I have taught that to some of my students, and think it is a much better line than the Chigorin Defense. I haven't played the Slav much, but have had some fun in the exchange variation, taking back with the queen, Scandinavian style. My opponents seem perplexed after the game, because for some reason they think it is unplayable. It isn't likely to get full equality, but it leads to much more interesting play than recapturing with the c-pawn. If you hate the Black side of the Exchange Slav, it is an option for non-Grandmasters, at least. |
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| Jun-13-05 | | Chesschatology: RIP Chigorin
You strived for active peice-play,
Against a solid set-up,
You gave up the two bishops,
Without closing the poition...
But you will always live in our hearts,
And when people play 2. Nf3 |
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| Jul-19-05 | | who: Where do you find winboard? |
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| Jul-19-05 | | Bent Bexley: I don't know that much about the Chigorin but have thought of taking it up. John Watson praised the recently translated into English, "The Chigorin Defense" by Valery Bronznik, highly. He wrote that "It will not only become the Chigorin Defense bible for many years to come, but it establishes the Chigorin as a sound defense deserving of respect." Was he wrong? |
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| Jul-20-05 | | Cecil Brown: <Bent Bexley> I've been having a tentative look at the Chigorin too.
There is an extract from the Valery Broznik book available online in pdf format here:- http://www.kaniaverlag.de/werbemapp... It certainly looks pretty thorough. I posted a couple more Chigorin links here:- Christoph Wisnewski |
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| Jul-20-05 | | Bent Bexley: <Cecil Brown> Thank you. I actually have the book by Bronznik on order. Perhaps I can use it as a doorstop or something else as our friends above in this thread seem to believe the Chigorin is at least partially refuted. ;-) |
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| Jul-25-05 | | Chesschatology: <Bent Bexley> Well... does the Broznik book contain any ways around the lines we suggested above- I've checked the index and the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 line is in the book- what are its theoretical conclusions? |
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| Jul-25-05 | | Chesschatology: p.s.
Moro doesn't seem to know how to deal with it!
Topalov vs Morozevich, 1999 |
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| Aug-25-05 | | Chesschatology: Help! Someone rescue the Chigorin! |
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| Aug-25-05 | | AgentRgent: <Chesschatology: Help! Someone rescue the Chigorin!> F Lipinsky vs R Buhmann, 2001 ;-) |
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| Sep-12-05 | | chess man: Here's a good game played by Chigorin Burn vs Chigorin, 1900 |
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| Sep-12-05 | | Bent Bexley: <<Chesschatology> Well... does the Broznik book contain any ways around the lines we suggested above- I've checked the index and the 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.Bxc3 exd4 8.Ne2 line is in the book- what are its theoretical conclusions?> He seems to think that black is ok. I'm rather busy so pardon me if I don't go into detail. I haven't examined the book closely but I can say it looks like a very good book. I have little doubt that the Chigorin is completely playable for club players. |
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| Sep-12-05 | | zorro: I think that 3.cd5 is hardly a test for the Chigorin |
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| Dec-25-05 | | Akavall: Has Chigorin been 'refuted' at the top level at least for now? I don't see any Top level GMs using it any more, in other words Morozevich stoped using it ;). If so what line is considered to be the strongest for white? I am just curious, I will still play the Chigorin. |
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| Apr-09-06 | | MUG: Not refuted, just easy for an opponent to prepare for, I think, once the suprise value is gone. I can imagine many of the top flight GMs just itching with anticipation for Moro to try the Chigorin against them again!! |
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| Apr-14-06 | | MUG: Incidentally, Gary Lane recommends the Chigorin very highly as a defence for the club player in his book <Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings: Black (Batsford 2005)>. He doesn't, however, much like 8...Bg4 in the lines quoted above, preferring either 8...Nf6 (exciting but double-edged)
D Rogozenko vs Morozevich, 2000
or 8...Nge2 (dull but safe).
D Southam vs B Bogle, 2004
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| Oct-10-06 | | fearmyskills: Let me conclude what we have learned from our analysis.
OK, we know that Chigorin is partially refuted. The line we hvae been analyzing gives white a  . This is only true if black can play extremely precise. Black has to be a dang good defender to achieve a which still gives white the advantage! This line provides white with bishop pair in a wide open position. I beleive white should have no problem at all converting this to a decisive advantage. This line allows white to play very comfortably. White has absoltely no worries. He can sit back relax and torture black with his bishop pair in a long endgame. My last comment is that black, playing the chig for the purpose of creating an exciting, dynamic game full of complicated tactics will frustrated when white steers the game in a long positional boring game where he has the advantage.
I hope this has helped those people deciding if they want to play the chig |
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| Mar-31-07 | | Whack8888: I personally feel the Chigorin is one of Black's best responces the Queen's Gambit. Instead of defending against White's central attack (2. c4) Black counterattacks. If Black plays dynamically and creatively, he will get a good game. I dont know any of the theory actually, for the Chigorin, though but I would geuss that it may be more or less impossible to refute. <White has absoltely no worries.> This may be Black's greatest asset in the Chigorin--many White players underestimate this defence. |
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| Jun-15-07 | | builttospill: This is a defense I think I owe myself to learn to improve in chess. I usually play the computer rather than people because it keeps me honest and makes me avoid silly tactical oversights that humans routinely miss. Here's one of my favorite games because Fritz couldn't give me one question mark all game! Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of this intriguing opening for black. White - Built to Spill
Black - Apple Powerbook set to approximately 40% difficulty (Trust me it's hard!) 1. d4 d5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c4 e6
4. e3 Nf6
5. Nc3 Bb4
6. Be2 dxc4
7. Bxc4 Ne4
8. Qc2 Nf6
Kind of a questionable sequence by the computer.
9. 0-0 0-0
10. Rd1 Bd7
I feel really solid at this point out of the opening. I am at my best when I try to use classical principles and avoid hypermodern strategies. That's why I feel I can improve drastically if I can understand the subtleties of this opening from the black perspective.
11. e4 Bxc3
12. bxc3 Na5?!
This puts my bishop onto perhaps a better diagonal. I don't like the move for the computer
13. Bd3 c5
14. e5 c4
This is a critical moment. I could go to e2 with the bishop and have a comfortable position, but I go for an attack
15. Ng5!? cxd3
16. Qxd3 h6
I would have been better off playing Rxd3, where if hxg5, Rh3 spells trouble. I had this in mind when I played Ng5.
17. exf6 hxg5
18. Bxg5
click for larger view...g6??
The computer is very good at avoiding material loss, but too good. What makes it beatable is that it values material over checkmate. Note: If gxf6, then 19. Bh6 Qb8 20. Qh3 f5 21. Qh5 Qd8 22. Rd3 Kh8 Bg5+ (huge advantage for white)
Something like Bc6 is the best way to continue. Fritz struggles to evaluate such positions with material inequality and an exposed king. 19. Qh3 a6
20. Qh6 Qxf6
21. Bxf6 Nc4
22. Qg7# |
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| Apr-09-08 | | Alphastar: Well <builttospill>, the apple powerbook immediately went wrong with 3. ..e6?? (I really believe this deserves two question marks as it is completely NOT in line with Nc6) which completely cramps his game. The normal move is 3. ..Bg4. |
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