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| May-09-03 | | refutor: question on a line
after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 5.Nf3 e6 6.e4 b5 7.e5 h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 (i call it the anti-meran declined) how is black to proceed...sure he has a pawn but how does he get developed after 9. ... Nd5 10.Nxd5 cxd5. i played this at the club last night and i was wondering what the easiest/best way to activate black's light square bishop is? i don't want to push the f-pawn because that will activate his dark square bishop for him. any ideas on a good way to play this position as black? i have a pawn, but what else do i have ;) |
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| Aug-07-03 | | Sylvester: How hard is this opening to learn? How does it compare to the King's Indian? |
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| Aug-07-03 | | Dustin J.: It is about as hard as the King's Indian. But it depends how you play. I think the Semi-Slav is just a little more relaxed and the KID is more aggressive but closed some of the time. It would depend on your taste for open games or closed. |
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| Aug-07-03 | | refutor: this line (d44 as opposed to normal semi-slav) is sharper than the king's indian. it isn't hard to learn, if you have a good memory :) the main idea is black is trying to advance his queenside majority, while white is trying to advance his kingside majority. the mainline is exciting and tactical...i'm hardly an expert but if you'd like to play some games in it i'll try both sides ;) |
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| Aug-07-03 | | jmcd2002: <how is black to proceed...> refutor - It'll depend on what white does (esp. on move 11), but 11...Bb4+ looks like a possibility (forcing either a king move or a knight pin). From there some thoughts would be 0-0, Bd7, Be8, and then your bishop will be active whenever you decide to push your f-pawn (which will then have rook support). This is just of the top of my head, though, no real analysis yet... (and of course 11. Qd2 throws a monkeywrench in the works. Maybe 11...Be7 in response with similar following moves?) Anyone else have ideas? |
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| Aug-07-03 | | Sylvester: <Dustin J.: It would depend on your taste for open games or closed.> I prefer open games for sure, but I don't really know yet what I am best at. I have more fun playing open games, but I make more blunders in them too. |
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| Aug-10-03 | | zorro: <refutor> The line ur asking for is not mentioned in Pedersen's THE BOTVINNIK SEMI-SLAV, if we follow ur move-order. But i've found some very similar lines in the anti-moscow move-order. After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 h6 white can either go down a pure Moscow with 6. Bxf6 Qxf6 or retreat the bishop. We have then 6. Bg3 dxc4 7. e4 g5 8. Bg3 b5. Now i'll borne myself to the following two lines:
9. Qc2 Bg7 10. 0-0-0 0-0 11. e5 (this is dubious in the author's view, who would prefer 12. h4 g4 13. Ne5) 11...Nd5 12. Ne4 Qa5 13. a3 (otherwise ...Nb4 would follow) b4 14. Axc4 bxa3 15. bxa3 Ba6 and black went on to win as white has nothing going on the other side of the board (Yurtaev-Shirov, '98).
But the main line is 9. Be2, that after 9...Bb7 10. e5 Nd5 (10...Nh5 is a major alternative) could almost transpose to ur line if white exchanged. But this is not considered. Instead the following lines are given: 11. h4 g4. 12 Nd2 h5 13. Nde4 Nd7 14. 0-0 Qb6 with black castling queenside; 11...Qa5 12. Rc1 g4 13. Nd2 c5 ecc.
One should think that the move Nxd5 is probably not so good.
Going back to the line u gave i think that through a pure semi-slav move-order white's Bg3 and Nxd5 are not an happy choice. White's play in the Botvinnik is focused both on his attacking chances (due to an open center and an exposed black king) and his kingside majority. Now, in ur line white has none; in addition he is a pawn down and black's majority is a sound one. Given that the center is now closed u could develop ur queenside as follow: Nc6, Qb6, Bd7 (in French style), forcing white to defend the d4-pawn twice. After that u could consider castling queenside, putting the king on a8, the other bishop on e7 and than advancing the b and c pawns. Castling kingside also comes into consideration given that the h4-push is no more a threat due to the hanging white center after g4, Nd2, h5. Frankly i dont see what white's plan would be here.
But i think one should also consider the other possible reprise, namely 10...exd5, that would free the way to ur light-squared bishop and leave u with the additional break ...c5 that after the exchange with the d4-pawn would give u a huge superiority in the center, a majority of 4 to 2 and faster pawns. Here i'd put the bishop on e6, in order to keep the h2-b8 diagonal closed and to prevent a knight from popping up on e5, the Knight on d7, aiming at c5-d3, and castle long.
Someone else has other ideas? |
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| Sep-05-03 | | zorro: <refutor> I eventually found ur line in Pedersen's book, in the very last page! But 10. Nxd5 is again not considered. I'll give what it says after 9. Bg3: "Black's best is probably 9...Nd5 10. h4 Qa5! 11. Rc1 Bb4 12. Qc2 (after 12. Qd2 g4 13. Nh2 h5 Black has achieved a very good version of the A latortsev variation [wich is 1.d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 b5 7. e5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Nxg5 Nd5]) 12...gxh4 13. Bxh4 Qxa2 and White did not have compensation for the pawn in Gerber-Shabalov, geneva 1992. There are quieter attempts for White, such as 10. Be2 or 10. Nd2, but neither promise anything." That is that |
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| Nov-08-03 | | refutor: as white, i recently started a game like this 1. Nf3 e6 2. d4 d5 3. c4 Nf6 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. Bg5 Bb4
6. e4 b5 7. e5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Nxg5 hxg5 10. Bxg5 Be7 11. exf6 yes 10. ... Be7 was bad, but even without that move, this line must be better for white than the botwinnik system. without ...c6 in there he has no scope for his queen, so it's gonna be relatively tough for him to give his king some safety. any thoughts? |
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| Nov-08-03 | | PinkPanther: The Anti-Meran Gambit of the Semi-Slav is unquestionably one of the sharpest lines in all of chess, and you'd better be tactically alert, because the positions that arise are fraught with tactics. |
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| Nov-08-03 | | Shadout Mapes: I've been starting to play this recently and have been wondering, in the main line, what's better, 11.g3 or 11.exf6? I prefer exf6, but does anyone have other opinions? |
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| Nov-09-03 | | refutor: exf6 is better...i think 11.g3 Rg8 is strong for black |
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| Nov-09-03 | | TheGunslinger: I used to play this and have recently switched to the King's Indian, a fun line I liked to look at was 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 dxc4 6. Bxc4 b5 7. Be2 Bb7 8. e4 b4 9. e5 bxc3 10. exf6 cxb2 11. fxg7 bxa1=Q 12. gxh8=Q the so called "Four Queen's Variation". |
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| Nov-09-03 | | TheGunslinger: By the way it isn't a made up line it is known to theory and was played by Dreev. |
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| Nov-09-03 | | Shadout Mapes: An interesting line, Gunslinger. This database has 3 games in it, a draw, a win for white, and a win for black. Is the position equal? |
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| Nov-09-03 | | TheGunslinger: I have a book on the Meran and it says White should be better but me and a friend have analyzed and believe Black is better. Check out the game Pliester-Dreev New York 1989. |
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| Apr-10-04 | | Vischer: I am pretty sure this is the botvinnik system. |
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| Apr-10-04 | | Cornwallis: Yeah, I thought these moves are the Semi-slav botvinnik gambit. |
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| Apr-18-04 | | Vischer: I play the Slav and Semi-Slav a lot as black, and I have been having a lot of trouble playing against this botvinnik system. Does anyone know a different move order that avoids it, or anything against it, or something so I can still play my Semi-Slav without fearing the Botvinnik? |
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| Apr-18-04 | | BiLL RobeRTiE: Try 5...h6, the Moscow System. After 6. Bxf6 Qxf6 Black has two bishops and after 6. Bh4!? dxc4 7. e4 g5 8. Bg3 b5 you have an 'improved' sort of Botvinnik. |
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| Apr-18-04 | | Bears092: improved? I disagree.
Van Wely vs Vallejo Pons, 2004
I don't anything that helps black there. |
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| Apr-18-04 | | BiLL RobeRTiE: I'd say its improved. For example, after 5...dxc4 6. e4 b5 7. e5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 would White like to play 9. Bg3? Certainly not, but the position resulting from that is much the same as after 5...h6 6. Bh4!? dxc4 7. e4 g5 8. Bg3 b5. Black has his queenside majority ready to roll and White lacks the passed h-pawn that he gets in the Botvinnik. |
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| Apr-18-04 | | Bears092: black doesn't have the open files on the kingside to attack with and the knights are still on the board, which helps white. |
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| Apr-18-04 | | BiLL RobeRTiE: Yeah thats definitely true but I still think its quite a good line for Black!~!~ |
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| Apr-20-04 | | Vischer: Chessgames.com, if I press 17.exf8+Q+ in
Opening Explorer it won't work. |
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