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Oct-05-22
 | | al wazir: Here's a way to investigate whether Niemann has cheated in OTB games. 1. In suspect games, find out what percentage of Niemann's moves are the same as the moves that, e.g., Stockfish would make in the same position. Call this the "coincidence rate." 2. Compare this with the coincidence rates that resulted when similarly ranked players who are not suspected of cheating played against the same opponents. Do the same thing with other chess engines that Niemann may have used. (If the various engines almost always come up with the same moves, this is unnecessary.) 3. If the coincidence rates in Niemann's games are significantly higher than those of the players he is being compared with, that would be prima facie evidence that he is getting help from an engine. A *statistically significant* comparison, i.e., one showing that Niemann's coincidence rate is higher than other players' by more than the average variation among non-cheating players, which can be ascribed to chance, would require checking a lot of games. Has this been done? |
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Oct-05-22 | | Heidi Baxendale: <saturn2> <Carlsen hinted he suspects also in the Soringfield game there was something wrong with Niemann. He has offered a proof so far. > Did you mean that he offered no proof so far? Unless you consider "he didn't seem to be concentrating" as proof? |
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Oct-05-22 | | metatron2: There is a lot to say about chesscom report, and surely they are top expert in analyzing cheating in online blitz, but I didn't like their OTB analysis at all: They said that Hans had the <fastest ever> increase in OTB strength between age 11-19 (faster than Fischer and Carlsen..), and they showed that he had <plateaus of 4.5 years> between ages 13-17+ which is <extremely unlikely> for someone who is supposed to be one of the most talented players ever.. While these two conclusions raise great suspicions regarding Hans cheating OTB, they are not strong enough by themselves (as chesscom themselves said). -- The rest of their OTB analysis showed nothing special, but my problem with that is: 1. Those analysis were based on their Strength-evaluation, and they said that that algorithm is <optimized for online blitz games> and <not for OTB> games. 2. They dismissed significant work published others on the net, claiming their methods are below their standards, even though they <never checked their own algorithms for OTB games>, and the people they dismissed <did check> their own algorithm with OTB data! 3. They ignored published information about Hans performing way better on broadcast events, that could add an important dimension to their anlysis. So I don't think much of chesscom OTB analysis, and was more convinced by analysis presented by others, prior to their report. |
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Oct-05-22 | | metatron2: That's the work I was referring to:
(1)
Very serious and interesting work by <Rafael Milk> from Brazil, data analyst and a strong chess amateur (and streamer): He used av. centipawns to show that during his rise from 2300 to 2700, Niemann's chess strength (almost) did not rise, and if that is true, then his level just <jumped> from 2300 to 2700 in <one day>, and his rating just needed to catch-up with that level. He then showed that his av. centipawn strength measurement method, is inline with players rating: so there is a <very good correlation> between player rating and his centipawn strength. That is an extremely <critical> information for his analysis, and it something the <chesscom did not do> with their (online blitz based) strength analysis (they did not show strength-rating correlation). Here he shows the correlation, and also presents that this correlation is kept during the progress of known top players (other than Niemann of course...): https://youtu.be/Q5nEFaRdwZY?t=147
Based on the stength-rating correlation that he found, he concluded that during Nieman's rise from 2300 to 2700, his av. strength <remained around 2500 level>. The most reasonable explanation for that, is that Hans used engine support only on critical moments, while most of the moves he played by himself (with his true strength close to 2500 rating). Here are his 2 full videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynn...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5n... |
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Oct-05-22 | | metatron2: and:
(2)
Work by <FM Yosha Iglesias>: The analysis were based on chessbase game analysis feature, that gives game strength-score compared with the engine. chesscom insinuated that this method is below their standard, but again, they <never tested> their strength-algo with OTB games (and maybe chessbase did test theirs..), so I don't see reason to dismiss Yosha's analysis. And based on those strength analysis, Niemann had <extreme anomalies>, in number of perfect games (20 times more than everybody else..), and his 5 best tourneys were better than everybody else including Fischer. She explained that cheaters who knew about Kenneth Regan's method (that is used by fide), could easily <bypass it> if they played different games at different levels. Plus his analysis ignored the time per move (surprisingly naive algorithm..): https://youtu.be/hFcSwSIw9nE?t=941
She also said that the chessbase-analysis is <not a known method>, so cheaters could not take measures to bypass it. Interesting observation.. She also showed statistics where Niemann has the <highest> number of top-3 engine moves compared with other top players, but the <lowest> av. centipawn score, and that is another indication that he picked engine moves on specific moments, and the rest of the game he played on his own (which is enough if u get a winning position..): https://youtu.be/hFcSwSIw9nE?t=187
Here are her 2 full videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfP...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFc...
---
(3)
And last bot not least, is data showing that between 3/2019 - 11/2020, Niemann played at 2400 level when the tourney was not broadcast, and at <2610> level when it was broadcast: https://twitter.com/ATL_kings/statu... and that there was no significant difference in strength between the two cases: https://twitter.com/ATL_kings/statu... I didn't see any contradiction to that info, and if that is true, then it seems very incriminating (especially in combination with the rest of the data) |
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Oct-05-22
 | | MissScarlett: <Seriously what is the accusation here? That Niemann is a 1500 patzer who would hang a bishop? Surely a more likely explanation is that Niemann is better at chess than at press conferences, that he had mixed emotions after beating the world champion, or that he was tired. Why raise this incident when it doesn't really provide evidence of cheating?> From that same day's broadcast I remember this from Wesley So talking after his five hour draw with Aronian (So vs Aronian, 2022) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkU... He misses a simple mate??? |
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Oct-05-22 | | theagenbiteofinwit: <Here's a way to investigate whether Niemann has cheated in OTB games. 1. In suspect games, find out what percentage of Niemann's moves are the same as the moves that, e.g., Stockfish would make in the same position. Call this the "coincidence rate." 2. Compare this with the coincidence rates that resulted when similarly ranked players who are not suspected of cheating played against the same opponents. Do the same thing with other chess engines that Niemann may have used. (If the various engines almost always come up with the same moves, this is unnecessary.) 3. If the coincidence rates in Niemann's games are significantly higher than those of the players he is being compared with, that would be prima facie evidence that he is getting help from an engine. A *statistically significant* comparison, i.e., one showing that Niemann's coincidence rate is higher than other players' by more than the average variation among non-cheating players, which can be ascribed to chance, would require checking a lot of games.> This seems plausible superficially, but it's not. If you applied this analysis to Paul Morphy games, it would suggest he used an engine during his career. |
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Oct-05-22 | | DanLanglois: What chess engine plays like Paul Morphy? ;) |
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Oct-05-22 | | DanLanglois: On the one hand, Magnus loses a game where he had one blunder, five inaccuracies and a bunch of mistakes, and we're supposed to believe his opponent was cheating. I am to the point of mocking this idea, though Magnus is not. Maybe 10 more meaningless tweets will convince the remainder of us. You guys can stop debating if Hans cheated in OTB. He didn’t. He really did beat Magnus in OTB. On the other hand, Hans has admitted to cheating in the past, but it seems that he hasn't been completely honest about it yet. I see the point in «information, that contradicts his statement». This goes to whether I think Chess.com is doing the right thing. It seems, that Chess.com has always been especially flexible/lenient when it has to do with titled players. This is something to juxtapose to 'There should be no leeway for cheaters.' Also, juxtapose 'Magnus throws a fit'. I can't endorse a witch hunt. Aren't everyone's games auto reviewed by their anti-cheat system? ? Was it sleeping all this time and only after Magnus throws a tantrum that they went back & retroactively scanned Hans' past games to dig up more shade on him? Either way chess dot com don't come off this looking as squeaky clean as they might want. IMO the online cheating & Hans's OTB games should be treated totally separately. |
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Oct-05-22 | | stone free or die: <From that same day's broadcast I remember this from Wesley So talking after his five hour draw with Aronian ... [So] misses a simple mate???>
Sure, they're already exhausted from a grueling game, and don't even have 10 seconds of quiet time to think about the position. I remember one time So was interviewed to analyze a game and immediately asked that an engine be turned on. Certainly didn't mean he's a cheater needing help, but rather that he wants to make sure he doesn't suggest a non-workable move to the audience. . |
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Oct-05-22 | | stone free or die: <MissScarlett: The case against Niemann as it presently stands requires a dose of Viagra.> A funny comment as only <Missy> can do. |
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Oct-05-22 | | Bobby Fiske: I never cheated.
I cheated once when I was 12 and 16 but in unrated games. I cheated at least 100 times when I was 12, 14, 16, 17 in rated games but never for money. I cheated at least 100 times when I was 12, 14, 16 and 17 in rated games and for money but never when I streamed. I cheated at least 100 times when I was 12, 14, 16 and 17 in rated games and for money while streaming at least 25 times but never against GMs. I cheated at least 100 times when I was 12, 14, 16 and 17 in rated games and for money while streaming at least 25 times and against GMs but never OTB. I swear.
(كزهر اللوز أو أبعد) |
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Oct-05-22 | | nok: I cheated when I was 31 in rated games and for money while streaming with GMs but never against Danya. . |
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Oct-05-22 | | stone free or die: <Bobby Fiske> it's true, Niemann made his bed, and now he has to sleep in it. But we always knew he cheated over more than one game when he was 16 - given his first public confession. In fact, though people credit Carlsen with bringing the cheating scandal to the fore - but it's really Niemann who did so with his initial confession. He pulled it out of the shadowy world of innuendo and put it squarely on the table. Without that confessional interview we might still be debating exactly why Carlsen pulled out of Sinquefield. . |
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Oct-05-22 | | nok: Timeline
< Sep 6 > Hans declares he cheated online in 2020 < One month later > chess.com investigators find Hans cheated online in 2020 |
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Oct-05-22
 | | chancho: C-atching
H-ans
E-asy
A-s
T-uesday |
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Oct-05-22
 | | al wazir: <metatron2: The analysis were based on chessbase game analysis feature, that gives game strength-score compared with the engine. [...] Niemann had <extreme anomalies>, in number of perfect games (20 times more than everybody else..), and his 5 best tourneys were better than everybody else including Fischer.> That sounds like what I was asking for. |
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Oct-05-22
 | | al wazir: <theagenbiteofinwit: If you applied this analysis to Paul Morphy games, it would suggest he used an engine during his career.> Nonsense. Have you done the analysis?
Morphy's play wasn't close to that of the strongest modern GMs. How could it be? Few or none of his opponents were at GM level. They didn't have modern opening knowledge or know how to play endgames properly. They didn't have the advantage of being able to study a century's worth of tournament games. They didn't have the benefits of computer analysis. |
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Oct-05-22
 | | FSR: Ben Finegold: <There's no evidence Hans cheated in the Sinquefield Cup. There's a lot of evidence he cheated on chess.com . . .> <20, 25% of GMs and IMs have cheated online, that's my guess. . . . But however, if you ask me what percentage of these people cheated in real life, it's much lower. It's less than 1%.> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctx... |
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Oct-05-22 | | Chessius the Messius: Morphy would be lost in the opening after 8 moves. |
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Oct-05-22
 | | fredthebear: It might be time for al and mess to go play checkers. |
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Oct-05-22 | | Petrosianic: <boz>: <Petrosianic> <I've noticed this yosha character milking the controversy for every click she can get.> I'm not up on how to squeeze money out of YouTube, so just curious. Is it better $$-wise to get a Click and a Dislike, than to get no click at all? |
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Oct-05-22 | | boz: <Petrosianic: <boz>: <Petrosianic> <I've noticed this yosha character milking the controversy for every click she can get.>
I'm not up on how to squeeze money out of YouTube, so just curious. Is it better $$-wise to get a Click and a Dislike, than to get no click at all?> I'm, not the one to ask but I know that the more clicks your video gets, the more advertisers like you. They don't care if you liked the video or not as long as you saw the ads. |
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Oct-05-22 | | Petrosianic: Okay, I'll have to ask around because I've seen videos where the hosts begged for Likes. I saw one really bad one, where the Host pleaded for you to click Like even if you didn't like it because why not? Anybody hearing that had already viewed the video, so he wanted more. |
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Oct-06-22 | | stone free or die: More <Finegold> - comment on WSJ (and <chess.com>) report: <GM Ben Finegold on the Hans Niemann WSJ Article> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df6...
Not quite as repetitious this time.
Basically it seems Ben and I could just tag team - his views are quite similar to mine, though I might be a little easier on Niemann since I'm not quite as surprised that the online cheating stopped in 2020. One other thing, a possible difference in our viewpoints - Ben says "<chess.com> doesn't do OTB", yet they did have this statement in their report: <Despite these potential suspicions, as shown below in Section VIII, an in-depth review of Hans’ OTB games using Chess.com’s statistical methods revealed aggregate patterns of play that, while interesting, are possible for a rising player approaching 2700.> Of course <chess.com> later does qualify this, however indirectly, when describing their analysis really was never designed for classical time controls. |
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