| Oct-08-24 | | cameosis: year of birth: 1834
place of birth: karlovac (austria-hungary)
year of death: 1895
place of death: karlovac (austria-hungary)
jordan was an attorney, the mayor of karlovac between 1886-1889, as well as parliamentary representative and croatian ambassador in pest (budapest). according to contemporary accounts, including the croatian chess problemist izidor gross, he was a strong chess player. https://www.significantcemeteries.o... https://www.facebook.com/1492567584... https://archive.org/details/gradkar... |
|
| Oct-08-24 | | cameosis: portrait:
https://up.picr.de/48768055lm.jpg |
|
Oct-08-24
 | | jnpope: Wouldn't his birth place be Karlstadt, Croatia (Austrian Empire) in 1834, and he died in Karlstadt, Croatia (Austrian-Hungarian Empire) in 1895? I'm fairly certain on the Empires, less certain about the city name, however, as the Austrians built the city in 1579 as a fort and it was named after the Archduke of Austria. The city appears as "Karlstadt, Croatia" in my 1890 atlas so I'm only guessing that it was officially known as Karlstadt until after the first World War (at least to the Americans and English)? |
|
| Oct-08-24 | | cameosis: <jnpope> croatian was one of the official languages of the austro-hungarian empire and before that, one of the common languages in the austrian empire, owing to its multi-ethnic nature. you are correct however that it was the austrian empire, not the austro-hungarian one which he was born into. interestingly enough, the official language in parliament (sabor) was latin, a curious fact i just found out about, and croatian became official in 1848: https://web.archive.org/web/2012042... feel free to adapt it to your liking -- i had included his bio to the correction slip, but only his dob and dod were added --i would like to see it added to his profile, and not just left as a comment in the thread, as i believe he had quite the interesting background for an amateur chess player. |
|
| Oct-08-24 | | cameosis: opatija (abbazia) is another such case -- depending on where in the empire you were, you’d find a different name for the city. the czechs and slovaks called it opatija as well, for instance, not abbazia: https://www.chesshistory.com/winter... https://www.chesshistory.com/winter... |
|
Oct-08-24
 | | perfidious: Reading Pachman's <Chess Strategy> was confusing to me in the mid 1970s; he would refer to opponents in consultation as 'Beratende' and one city (Zagreb) was called Agram. |
|
| Oct-08-24 | | cameosis: beratende (singular: beratender) would just be german for conferrers, pretty much a literal translation for a consultation game, with emphasis on the players rather than the game itself. agram is the austrian name for zagreb, but outside of austria it is hardly ever used. |
|
| Oct-08-24 | | stone free or die: One should be aware that the <Austro-Hungarian Empire> was a political affiliation between two equal powers: <At its core was the dual monarchy, which was a real union[citation needed] between Cisleithania, the northern and western parts of the former Austrian Empire, and Transleithania (Kingdom of Hungary). Following the 1867 reforms, the Austrian and Hungarian states were co-equal in power.[14] > So it wasn't a homogeneity, in fact, Hungary was fairly generous with its minorities, at least, at first: <The Hungarian Minority Act of 1868 gave the minorities (Slovaks, Romanians, Serbs, et al.) individual (but not also communal) rights to use their language in offices, schools (although in practice often only in those founded by them and not by the state), courts and municipalities (if 20% of the deputies demanded it). Beginning with the 1879 Primary Education Act and the 1883 Secondary Education Act, the Hungarian state made more efforts to reduce the use of non-Magyar languages, in strong violation of the 1868 Nationalities Law.[98] After 1875, all Slovak language schools higher than elementary were closed, including the only three high schools (gymnasiums) in Revúca (Nagyrőce), Turčiansky Svätý Martin (Turócszentmárton) and Kláštor pod Znievom (Znióváralja).> These excerpts, and more, are from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austr... |
|
| Oct-09-24 | | cameosis: croatia had a priviledged status regarding language and autonomy (the latter on paper, but regardless). like i wrote earlier, croatian was one of the official languages of auh. |
|
Oct-09-24
| | jnpope: <cameosis: <jnpope> croatian was one of the official languages of the austro-hungarian empire and before that, one of the common languages in the austrian empire, owing to its multi-ethnic nature.> It's not so much about the native language but rather the Anglo-centric approach <CG> has taken for player and place names, which would be the accepted English/American versions of each. The reason given by those that were here before me is that it's an American website and English is the <standard> (although most of us have begun introducing split English and native spellings in biographies now that <CG> supports UTF character sets). So while the native populace may have called the city Karlovac in the 1800s, the English/American (and dare I say Austrian) name was Karlstadt. Which, again, I'm only guessing, changed around the first World War when Croatia gained more autonomy and that's when Karlovac became the accepted name in English/American books. As a general rule I will try to use contemporary English/American references, or as close as possible to the given date, for a place name as given in those books just to follow the <CG> practice of English being the standard language used on the site. I've found <The Library Reference Atlas of the World> (1890) to be a very useful tome due to it's extensive "General Index" of place names given in English (starting at PDF-page 350):
https://books.google.de/books?id=CN... |
|
| Oct-09-24 | | cameosis: thanks for the info. yeah, as a non-united statesian/non-brit this anglo-centric approach to personal and place names gives me stomach ache, especially since it usually butchers the real names as well (see »bombay«, »calcutta« et al), but including both in the lead is a good compromise. |
|
Oct-09-24
| | perfidious: While place names have reverted to their native languages, it remains accepted usage in tournament headings to have events such as (Bad) Pistyan (Piestany), Maehrisch-Ostrau (Moravsky-Ostrava) and Karlsbad (Karlovy Vary) which were held before WWII carry on using the German place names of prewar days. While I am an American who was raised on British and American English, I aim to respect other countries' traditions. Not all of us are Anglocentric. |
|
| Oct-09-24 | | cameosis: <perfidious> there is a difference in practice regarding place names between 19th century germany and austria/austria-hungary. germany wasn’t ethnically as diverse as austria/austria-hungary and thus german place names where official as a rule, whereas in aut/auh they weren’t, at least not consistently across the entire empire(s), but rather depended on the region and the respective official/common language. the fact that wien (vienna) was the capital, led ultimately to the adoption of the german variants internationally, though oddly enough not in the case of the capital itself. |
|
| Oct-09-24 | | philmsu: <Antun Jordan, gradonačelnik, veleposjednik i šahist (Karlovac, 1834-
Karlovac, 15.1. 1895.)>
https://repozitorij.ffzg.unizg.hr/i... |
|
| Oct-09-24 | | cameosis: <philmsu> awesome, thanks! |
|
| Oct-09-24 | | stone free or die: Google translate of <philmsu>'s post: <Antun Jordan, mayor, landowner and chess player (Karlovac, 1834- Karlovac, January 15, 1895)> |
|
|
|
|
Kibitzing
