| Jul-19-05 | | SBC: <chessgames.com> and anyone else: Under the name "Dale L Gustafson" above there are games from 1996-2003 and games from 1920. Obviously it's not the same person.
the 1920 games have headers similar to this:
[Event "11"]
[Site "Goteborg C"]
[Date "1920.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Beskow Froeken K"]
[Black "G Gustafson"]
G. Gustafson isn't Dale L Gustafson.
Now, can anyone tell me who is this "G. Gustafson" that played in the Göteborg tournament (-12=1)?? There's one entry under the name "G. Gustafson", a loss to Frank Marshall at the Dimock theme tournament in NY 1925: G Gustafsson vs Marshall, 1925 Thanks.
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| Jul-19-05 | | Calli: G Gustafson finished last at the Goteborg C section. http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cserica/s... I doubt if he was ever heard from again. But yes all the 1920 games should be corrected. |
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| Jul-19-05 | | SBC: <Calli>
Thanks.
Of course he was heard of after that tournament since he has a game vs. Frank Marshall at the themed Dimock tournament in NYC in 1925. I wonder how such a player rated playing Frank Marshall?
Unless there was a simul during the tournament...though it seems odd why this game would be preserved from a simul. At any rate, a friend of mine was curious about the name Gustafsson. Greta Garbo was originally named Greta Gustafsson and he was wondering if there were any connection (I don't think he really believes it would have been her though she would have been 20 in 1925) and if no connection, he wondered who this G.Gustafsson might be. The only thing for certain is that is isn't Dale. |
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| Jul-19-05 | | Calli: I doubt it is the same G Gustafsson.
The game looks suspect. For one thing, its not the correct opening for the Dimock theme which was 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4. Secondly, nobody named Gustafsson played at that tournament. See http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/%7Egoell... So the Marshall game is somewhat of a mystery. |
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| Jul-19-05 | | SBC: <Calli>
hmm... thanks again, dear Calli. This is getting curiouser and curiouser... |
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| Jul-19-05 | | Calli: It could be a different Dimock theme and opening. It does say 1925 in the Event, not 1924. I'm not sure that there was a Dimock in 1925. I see one in 1926, but not '25. Hmmm |
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| Jul-19-05 | | SBC: <calli>
Well, what would Gustafsson be doing in the midst of such players anyway?? This doesn't make much sense. There's a puzzle piece missing. |
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| Jul-19-05 | | Calli: Aha! He gives Helms newspaper columns and right at the end, Helms says
"The tournament committee of the club now plans another novel competition for the purpose of testing the Vienna opening. The following moves will be compulsory: 1.P-K4, P-K4; 2.Kt-QB3, Kt-KB3; 3.P-B4. Marshall, Torre, Norwood, Santasiere, and Smirka are among those who will play." On an another page, Mr.Goeller says "In the second Dimock Theme Tournament that Marshall and Torre participated in, in January and February of 1925, the theme was the Vienna Gambit, 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5." So that fits the opening of the Gustafsson game, but no crosstable or mention of ol' Gus. :-O |
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Jul-20-05
 | | chessgames.com: We moved the games from the 1920's, including the one against Marshall, over here: G Gustafson |
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| Jul-20-05 | | SBC: <chessgames.com>
Thanks. Except in moving G Gustafson vs Marshall, 1925 to G Gustafson, you also misspelled his (her?) last name. It should be G. Gustafsson. |
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| Jul-20-05 | | Calli: <SBC> Lol. This is exactly how history gets changed. Someone decides that G Gustafson who played in Sweden in 1920 must be the same as G Gustafsson in New york in 1926. Oh well, at least Dale's record is cleaned up now. |
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| Jul-21-05 | | taljechin: Howdy, I'm the guy who originally asked SBC about this matter. <Calli> Chessbase gives both as *Gustafsson*, so history may also be made by some spelling challenged american, who divides the same person into two... Btw, look at the many spellings of Korchnoi in different countries, e.g: Kortchnoi, Kortjnoj, Kortschnoj etc etc (not counting typos & misspellings!) - would you immediately assume these are all different persons? ;) But you do have a point, Gustafsson is a common name and there are a bunch of Christian names that start with G, so they *could* have been two different persons - but on the other hand 'Gustavsson' is an even more common spelling so the f limits the selection sligthly and chess is a limited hierachial world where you work your way up (hopefully!) the ranking ladder - so the simplest solution is to assume they were the same person until there's evidence against that assumption. After all, GG may not have had more than 1800 in today's standard but he/she must have spent some time playing chess somewhere to even be slightly interested in getting slaughtered by a chess master, who probably was unknown to most non-chessplayers... |
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| Jul-21-05 | | Calli: <Chessgames> Thank you! Now Gustafson from Goteborg 1920 and Gustafsson from NY 1926 are seperate entries. |
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| Jul-22-05 | | taljechin: LOL Thanks for clouding the issue even more! I don't really understand why GG in Göteborg would use an american (mis)spelling of his/her? name and the GG in New York the typical swedish spelling... The other way around would at least be logical. Anyway, I still think the GGs are the same person who later emigrated to the US - just like Garbo... Though it's probably not Garbo since the tm in Göteborg, puts Fröken (i.e. Miss) after K Beskow but not after GG. Btw, now you give New York 1924/25 as NY 1926, how come? Did you find the Dimock Vienna tm? A check in Chessbase gave no hits for "Gustafson G" while "Gustafsson G" found another theme tournament game, which perhaps might make it easier to identify GG? Gustafsson,G - Helms,H [C45]
New York Metropolitan tt New York, 1923
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.Bd3 d5 7.exd5 cxd5 8.0-0 Be7 9.Bg5 0-0 10.Nc3 c6 11.Re1 Rb8 12.Na4 h6 13.Bf4 Rb4 14.c4 dxc4 15.Bc2 Nd5 16.Bd2 Rb5 17.Re4 Be6 18.Qe2 Nf6 19.Re3 Qc7 20.Bc3 Rg5 21.Bxf6 Bxf6 22.Nc3 Bd4 23.Re4 Bh3 24.g4 Bxc3 25.bxc3 f5 26.Qxc4+ Kh8 27.Rf4 Bxg4 28.Kh1 Be2 29.Qd4 Rg4 30.Rxg4 Bxg4 31.f4 Bf3+ 32.Kg1 c5 33.Qe3 Bb7 34.Re1 Qc6 35.Qg3 Rf6 36.Rd1 c4 37.Kf2 Qb6+ 38.Rd4 Rg6 39.Qe3 Rg2+ 40.Kf1 Rxc2 0-1 |
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| Jul-22-05 | | Calli: <taljechin> I meant New York Dimock 1925. Sorry a typo. "I still think the GGs are the same person..."
It is possible. The spellings could be wrong as you say. For me, its not a question of believing one way or the other. The main point is that there are no facts to support the conclusion. It is much better to await further data. A first name would good, for instance. "tt" probably means Team Tournament. Probably Helms from the Brooklyn CC and Mr. G representing Manhattan |
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| Jul-22-05 | | taljechin: "It is much better to await further data."
I agree, so why split them in two, before being sure they really are two people? For example, Korchnoi is often spelled 'Kortchnoi' but you don't have a special section for that spelling - even if there *could* be some game from the unknown amateur 'V.(ladimir) Kortchnoi'. ;) If tt stands for team tournament, then is it possible to find a list of members in Manhattan CC at the time? And the mystery would be almost resolved! :) |
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| Jul-23-05 | | Calli: <For example, Korchnoi is often spelled 'Kortchnoi' but you don't have a special section for that spelling - even if there *could* be some game from the unknown amateur 'V.(ladimir) Kortchnoi'.> This is exactly the point. If you don't know that a game is by Viktor Korchnoi then it should not go in his collection. Same with Mr G. If there are mistakes in the Korchnoi file, then it is okay to introduce guesses and errors into another player? Not logical. |
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| Jul-23-05 | | taljechin: Well, you're surely inconsistent. You change all different spellings into one, in the one case and divide them into two on a hunch in the other... It's all the more striking that before this question of mine, you had your three 'Gustafson' under one name, "Dale L Gustafson" and when it's pointed out that this player can hardly be same due to the many years between the oldest and youngest games you respond by dividing them into three players! Despite that 1920 and 1923/5 isn't very far apart. Well anyway, I won't bother with this anymore. If you want to be inconsistent that's your problem. Dividing GG into two people merely on a misspelling issue is hardly what I would call "keeping the database squeaky clean!", but I don't use it anyway. It's a pity that the discussion only lead to a discussion about your database management skills and didn't shed any light on the issue in question. But it seems like nobody knows or has found out anything worth mentioning, so I'll leave it at that. Arrivederci. |
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Kibitzing
