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| Apr-04-06 | | Jim Bartle: Not a clue, but "triple" is a lot sharper.
Thinking about it a little more, I'd go with James on this, as he's shown himself to be a real stickler for accuracy. A James classic was his evisceration of David Halberstam's Summer of '49, in one of the Abstracts around 1990. Just picked the book apart on its sloppiness. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | percyblakeney: The Penthouse rumour seems to be true, even if it's apparently not a very "radical" article... : http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt... A progress chart over Kosteniuk's 2001-2006:
http://www.kosteniuk.com/photosenew... |
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Apr-05-06
 | | Open Defence: <The Penthouse rumour seems to be true> well after the fishnet stockings and riding a knight photos, the fact that she will be fully clothed in this Penthouse shoot is irrelevant, she has done her damage, though others would probably feel differently |
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| Apr-05-06 | | Akavall: <Open Defence> Would you care to explain what "damage" you are referring to? Maybe I am missing something, but I think this will only help chess. |
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Apr-05-06
| | Open Defence: <Akavall: <Open Defence> Would you care to explain what "damage" you are referring to? Maybe I am missing something, but I think this will only help chess> Akvall I guess you would not care if another man appears in a provocative photo shoot or in an adult magazine .. but I think most women feel it is a bit demeaning when some women try to exploit the glamour factor a bit too much .. taste is subjective .. but associating chess with an adult magazine like penthouse, plus the earlier photos I referred to in my opinion damages the whole idea of women in sport and reduces it almost to a farce ..instead of giving prominence to the skill or sport itself |
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| Apr-05-06 | | Akavall: <Open Defence> I didn't object to this http://www.chessbase.com/newsprint.... <in my opinion damages the whole idea of women in sport and reduces it almost to a farce> Why is that so? Kosteniuk is what? #3 rated women in the world, and she keeps progressing, like <percyblakeney> pointed out. I just think she needs let people outside of chess world know, that chess is not limited to stereotypical GMs. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | EmperorAtahualpa: <<Akavall: <Open Defence> Would you care to explain what "damage" you are referring to? Maybe I am missing something, but I think this will only help chess> Akvall I guess you would not care if another man appears in a provocative photo shoot or in an adult magazine .. but I think most women feel it is a bit demeaning when some women try to exploit the glamour factor a bit too much .. taste is subjective .. but associating chess with an adult magazine like penthouse, plus the earlier photos I referred to in my opinion damages the whole idea of women in sport and reduces it almost to a farce ..instead of giving prominence to the skill or sport itself> <Open Defence> While I think the beauty of women is irrelevant to chess, I do think it promotes the sport. Basically we should appreciate these women professionals not for their physical beauty, but first of all for the beauty of their chess. But a little merchandising doesn't hurt! After all, we also see football players in commercials for instance. I understand your argument that it is demeaning for women to promote themselves by showing their beauty, but on the other hand, I don't think you should view it so negatively. The way I see it, the message of women like Kosteniuk is: "OK, look how beautiful I am. And believe it or not, beautiful women also have brains, and they can play damn good chess! Do I have your attention? Now watch my chess and go play some yourself!" That's not so bad, is it? :) Also remember Korchnoi's recent milk commercial. Now if Korchnoi would be beautiful, he would focus on that, wouldn't he? But he's not, so he focuses on milk. :) |
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| Apr-05-06 | | acirce: How can anyone possibly think it's a good thing for chess to have it associated with the porn industry? Or a good thing at all to work with them? Maybe someone should give a simul to brothel customers too, during the football World Cup, for example? Would get attention for sure, why let such an opportunity slip. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | Akavall: <acirce> I think <EmperorAtahualpa> put it very well: <The way I see it, the message of women like Kosteniuk is: "OK, look how beautiful I am. And believe it or not, beautiful women also have brains, and they can play damn good chess! Do I have your attention? Now watch my chess and go play some yourself!"> As a far as Topalov goes, probably not much good, but no damage either... |
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| Apr-05-06 | | acirce: Obviously she is dragging the reputation of chess in the mud. But even that is to ignore that the world is bigger than the insignificant little game we call chess. Pornography is an evil that should be fought, not assisted. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | Jim Bartle: Does anybody know if she actually gave an interview for Penthouse? Is it clear in the text? I ask because sometimes people give interviews to freelancers (or people misrepresenting themselves) and the interviews wind up in places the interviewee never agreed to. Concerning the photos, it's also possible they purchased the rights from somebody who possessed pictures taken with a different use in mind. Just wondering; it wouldn't be the first time. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | azaris: It does sends a strange message considering that most chess promotion in the US nowadays seems to be targetting kids (Chess Life, Susan Polgar, and others). Not that I consider a harmless article in Penthouse to be very controversial, I mean who is even going to know it's there apart from chess enthusiasts? I think it's only time to worry when Playboy do a centerfold on the "Women of US Chess Championships". |
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| Apr-05-06 | | EmperorAtahualpa: <How can anyone possibly think it's a good thing for chess to have it associated with the porn industry?> <acirce> I don't think that is the reason why Kosteniuk agreed to a Penthouse interview. See, Penthouse is a magazine for men who have the hots for women, right? So the focus of the magazine is women. The way I see it, Kosteniuk is exploiting this erotic focus on women to show that women are more than sex-objects and that they can do very well at "male activities" (stereotype) such as chess! Actually, if you look at it this way, Kosteniuk's initiatives are actually very constructive! |
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| Apr-05-06 | | percyblakeney: It's maybe a good idea to avoid this type of magazines, but at the same time people like John Lennon, Michael Moore, Malcolm X and Jimmy Carter have had nothing against being interviewed by Playboy, so it's not as if Kosteniuk is doing something that extreme. I wouldn't have recommended her to do it (if the interview really was made by Penthouse and not some freelancer who sold it to them), but that's another thing... |
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| Apr-05-06 | | acirce: <EmperorAtahualpa> So what about my suggestion that she does a simul for brothel customers? I don't see the difference. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | azaris: There's definitely a cautionary example to be observed here - women's tennis. Female tennis players have been objectified for years (though it's gotten better after Kournikova quit), and it reached ridiculous proportions when they pretended like the Williams sisters were photomodels. Now there was some talk about making women's tennis more like reality TV. You can smell the desperation. Truth be told I don't think anyone really cares about women's tennis anymore, and at least part of it has to do with the cheapening of the players by concentrating on their looks. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | EmperorAtahualpa: <Truth be told I don't think anyone really cares about women's tennis anymore, and at least part of it has to do with the cheapening of the players by concentrating on their looks.> <azaris> Yeah, and the other part is that now Amelie Mauresmo is the #1 player. :) |
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| Apr-05-06 | | EmperorAtahualpa: <<EmperorAtahualpa> So what about my suggestion that she does a simul for brothel customers? I don't see the difference.> <acirce> I don't think Penthouse readers are exactly the same kind of people as brothel customers! |
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| Apr-05-06 | | acirce: <I don't think Penthouse readers are exactly the same kind of people as brothel customers!> Why not?
Men who are willing to pay for the right to exploit women sexually are, unfortunately, not particularly unusual or "special". Many men will do it at least once in their lives. In principle there is only a gradual difference between this and mindlessly drooling over some naked "hot chick" in a magazine...the two phenomena are of course closely linked since they are based on the same premise as the woman as an object, a piece of meat put there on the shelf to use for everyone who wants to pay. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | EmperorAtahualpa: <acirce> I've already expressed my views, and so have you. I don't think we will agree about this. But I have one more important thing to say, which I think is critical to this discussion and that is that I think it is important to understand that the erotic affection of men for women is something perfectly natural and does not need to be regarded as demeaning to women. It is rather the atmosphere around this erotic affection for women that can be demeaning! |
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| Apr-05-06 | | Gypsy: < The way I see it, the message of women like Kosteniuk is: "OK, look how beautiful I am. And believe it or not, beautiful women also have brains, and they can play damn good chess! Do I have your attention? Now watch my chess and go play some yourself!" That's not so bad, is it? :) > Ehm, being slightly dislectic I red this as <...Now watch my chess and go play some with yourself! ...> I definitely had to do a bit of a double take before I sorted it out. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | norami: All those girls who prefer good-looking male movie stars and pop musicians - is that demeaning to men? |
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Apr-05-06
 | | WannaBe: <norami> Consider I'm not 2 of the 3 (movie star, pop musician), I'll say it is demeaning to men. But I don't let that bother me. My good friends Jack, Johnny, Jose and Morgan take very good care me. :-) |
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| Apr-05-06 | | norami: <WannaBe> You left out Jim. And don't forget dear old Grand Dad. |
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| Apr-05-06 | | Marmot PFL: <acirce> This discussion reminds me of one I had many years ago with a prostitute (and pretty good chess player BTW). I raised some of the same points as you, and her reply was that she was less exploited as a prostitute than as a waitress, maid, cashier, etc. (better pay and more fexible hours). Plus she really enjoyed sex...bottom line it was her time and her body. |
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