|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 8 OF 15 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-05-04 | | aw1988: Nevertheless, I take Zurab's side on this one. The spanish guards didn't even answer his question. Oh, this is going to help FIDE, all right. :( |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | meloncio: <Leviathan> I agree and don't worry. We know the barbarian habits always came from North Europe. Mediterranean Power! <aw1988> If the spanish guards were Guardia Civil (I'm not sure of), they never answer questions, they are tough guys and don't speak English! And Zurab, according to the picture above, looks like a hooligan truck-driver instead of a nice and polite man. Oh man, just kidding :-D |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Swede: I think <Pretendyourlying> has a point. There are of course police brutality everywhere (even here in Sweden), but I think it's more common in Southern Europe than here because of it's fascistic heritage. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Griffin: Which idiot coined the phrase "Ignorance is bliss?"
How would they know? |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | I sacrifice like Tal: <ray keene> yeah I have that NIC with Azmai on it. Also Azmai was apprently using Kasaparovs secret novelties in his own games. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Leviathan: <Swede: because of it's fascistic heritage> What do you mean by that? If my country used to be fascist 50 years ago, it means necessarily that we all have a fascist mentality since then? I think your point is too weak to justify <Pretendyourlying>'s statement. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Swede: <Leviathan> First let me say that I don't think you "all have a fascist mentality", I have nothing against the people in Southern Europe, of course not! Secondly I want to ask you if you don't think there generally is more police brutality (and corruption) in the southern part of Europe than in the northern part? I think that there is. Southern Europe clearly has a history of fascism. Italy is the birthplace of it and Spain and Greece only became democratic about 30 years ago. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | WMD: <Also Azmai was apprently using Kasaparovs secret novelties in his own games.> There's one born every minute. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | acirce: Mig Greengard put it in a slightly different way on his Daily Dirt: <There's no need to condemn an entire country. But there is a long track-record of friction with authoritarian Spanish organizers. As much as they have done to promote the game, many seem to get into it because it allows them to act like the return of Franco.> |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Leviathan: <you don't think there generally is more police brutality (and corruption) in the southern part of Europe than in the northern part?> Well, my answer is no, I don't think so - but I can only talk about italy, I must say. Imo, the fact that southern europe was fascist isn't the cause of the greater brutality of its policemen that you are talking about. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | meloncio: Well, a little incident and the national prejudices and hatred are here again. Hey Americans, can you see how Europeans aren't so peace-loving and tolerant as they think? |
|
Nov-05-04
 | | ray keene: here is another take on the azmai incident
Open Letter to FIDE and Georgian Chess Federation
by WGM Ana Matnadze
During last two weeks a significant number of world intellectuals was closely paying attention to the World Chess Olympiad, 2004, which took place in Spain. It was a great festivity for both chess players and chess friends, but it was partly ruined by the terrible incident that happened during the closing ceremony. I am not going to judge who was right and who was wrong; this is a privilege of Spanish Law Enforcement Agencies. I just want to say that if FIDE and Georgian Chess Federation had listened to and implemented a slogan of my open letter, which I wrote in June, 2004 with WGM Lela Javakhishvili and addressed it to FIDE and World Chess Society – “FIDE without Azmaiparashvili”, this disgusting fact would not have occurred. If FIDE had published our letter on it’s web-site, if Mr.Georgios Makropoulos and other FIDE executives had opportunity to express their opinion on Mr. Azmaiparashvili’s actions and if FIDE had not limit itself only with an irrelevant response by Stefanova and Kovalevskaya, which provoked only smiles all around the world, I believe, that we would not have witnessed the show, performed by Mr. Azmaiparashvili, which ruined this beautiful day for all chess players. I was completely shocked by speeches of some representatives of Georgian Chess Federation made during the press-conference, organized by Georgian Chess Federation, on the 1st of November. We all understand that it is not an honorable action to hit a person, who is already on his/her knees, but how could we interpret words of some GrandMasters saying: “It’s true, that Azmaiparashvili often provokes conflicts, but he is a real man and he protested against disrespect towards Georgia”. How was disrespect towards Georgia expressed and why this issue becomes a political one? It’s a nonsense. Why they use name of Nona Gaprindashvili to justify this incident? Some speakers at the press-conference did not even attend the closing ceremony and have no idea, how the incident happened. Maybe it would be better if these people, first of all, respected their country and Mrs. Nona Gaprindashvili and attended the ceremony of awarding a coup named after her? Or maybe, it would be better if Mr. Azmaiparashvili protested against statement of Israeli Men Chess team, which accused Georgian Team of intentionally and deliberately giving up their scores in the last round? This is where reputation of Georgia was indeed shaken. Nobody would accuse Spanish Law Enforcement Agencies for their actions as far as they were following their duty and were protecting chess society both in their country and in the world. The time has come that everybody, FIDE, Georgian Chess Federation, and Mr. Azmaiparashvili himself, start evaluating events and incidents that he is involved in and, finally, come to a relevant conclusion. Never being penalized before for his actions created an atmosphere where everything is permitted for him and this threatens Azmaiparashvili’s reputation, carrier and even his life… Concluding, I address FIDE and Georgian Chess Federation again and again, to take into consideration all we have said above, respect opinions of any chess player and limit actions of ambitious and aggressive people. WGM
Ana Matnadze
i think she is a georgian national like azmai but i am not certain |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | WMD: <Or maybe, it would be better if Mr. Azmaiparashvili protested against statement of Israeli Men Chess team, which accused Georgian Team of intentionally and deliberately giving up their scores in the last round? This is where reputation of Georgia was indeed shaken.> Reference is made to Armenia's 3.5-0.5 defeat of Georgia in that last round. Must have a look at the games. The final round of the 1986 Dubai Olympiad which saw the USSR beat Poland 4-0 to pip England to the gold medal has not been forgotten. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Knezh: Azmai's enemie WGM Matnadze seems quite eager to pounce on him after that unfortuante incident. I say, just for this time, forget Azmai's past and judge the situation from how it appears to have occurred. WGM Matnadze actually used the Calvia incident to her advantage - trying to raise the question about kicking Azmai out of FIDE.
While i do think that Azmaiparashvlili probably was guilty of rude behaviour towards WGM Matnadze, this does not seem like a good occasion to bring up the old offences, and Matnadze's open letter does no credit to her in the first place (All said is strictly IMHO) |
|
Nov-05-04
| | ray keene: i dont know ana matnadze and i have no idea about her motives or whatever. however i am awaiting a definitive account by the highly respected spanish journalist leontxo garcia which he has been promising me for several days. i trust his judgement 100% and it will be very interesting to see what he writes! |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | rover: I tend to agree with <Knezh> here. I also think Matnadze's letter is quite similar to Stefanova's in that it has little relevance to the discussed issue. I'm finally starting to see <acirce's> point. While I don't think Azmaiparashvili1s past mistakes should be forgiven just becouse he was mistreated by the police, indeed I still think he's unfit to be the vice president of FIDE, it is apparent that some people are prepared to use this to further their own agenda. (Possibly distorting the facts in the process.) |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Gypsy: <rover, Knezh> Azmai's problem is that without his FIDE-vice-president and Euro-champ credentials, he'd be immediately toast in public opinion arena. But if Mr. Joe Public is to admit those credentials as indirect proof of upstanding citizenship and legitimacy of Azmai's business, then Azmai's performance in those functions is quite relevant to Mr. Public opinion. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Gypsy: <swede> Isn't Spanish brown past under Franko as little relevant to the question at hand as Gruzia's red past under Soviets? (And how in the world did the history of Italy and Grece come up?) |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Dionyseus: Ana Matnadze plays at Playchess, has an over 2800 Blitz rating. But that is irrelevant, and I find it unfortunate that she would use this incident to further her anti-Azmai propaganda, especially when his intent was to help some chessplayers get the respect they deserve. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | WMD: Dominic Lawson's book, The Inner Game, which focuses on Nigel Short's doomed world championship match, relates the following story: As an example of unscrupulous Russian - and Kasparovian - chess conduct, Nigel will allude to the big Moscow tournament of 1992, organised by Kasparov himself. Kasparov had secured an invitation for his chief second, the Georgian Grandmaster Zurab Azmaiparashvili. 'Azmai', according to Nigel, had the black pieces against the American
Grandmaster Nick de Firmian and desperately wanted a draw. Nigel told
me, 'Azmai offered Nick a draw and $2000 if he took it. Nick declined.
Kasparov went up to Nick and was very angry with him. He said that $2000
was a very generous offer for a draw and that he should accept. Of
course, he's a friend of Azmaiparashvili and wanted to help him. But he was also the tournament organizer, and this was something really shady.' |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Swindler: Why not use that in the Informator? An icon depicting a dollar-bill after the 1/2-1/2 to show why the draw was agreed. ;-) |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | WMD: To correct one aspect of the story, the 1990 (not 1992) Moscow GMA qualifying tournament is meant. Here's the game: DeFirmian vs Azmaiparashvili, 1990. There's no suggestion, of course, that De Firmian took Azmai up on his offer. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Gypsy: <... which accused Georgian Team of intentionally and deliberately giving up their scores in the last round? This is where reputation of Georgia was indeed shaken.> Gruzia's Olympic record can be found here: http://schach.wienerzeitung.at/asp/.... It is clear that into the last round Gruzia sent its "bench". Given the tournament standings, that may or may not seem reasonable. I go back and forth on that. I tried to look up the games of the match, but, at present, they do not seem to be in the database. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Swede: <meloncio> Hatred? Who's hating? Not me. I'm sure Spain and Italy are lovely countries with great people, food and nature etc. <Gypsy> No, I don't think Spain's brown past is irrelevant to the conduct of it's police force, but there could very well be another reason why the Spanish police might be a little harsher than the Swedish for example. <And how in the world did the history of Italy and Grece come up?> Well, they are also a part of Southern Europe, aren't they? And it was <Leviathan> who brought Italy up first. |
|
| Nov-05-04 | | Minor Piece Activity: Do we really know if Azmai tried to push his way past the security guards <Gypsy?> It might just be another thing ppl took for granted. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 8 OF 15 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
