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Nov-05-04
 | | Gypsy: No <Swede>, I said rougly that "officers' heritage was as little relevant as Azmai's heritage". Whereas you appear to note that the officers had unreasonably intransient approach to rules, you fail to note that Azmai seems to feel above many rules. (All are equal, but some more than others.) Whereas you blame the officers' intransience on Spanish brown history, you fail to analogously ascribe Azmai's above-the-law attitude. I think it was best to stay away of the heritage topic. But if you speculate about it, you should be as objective as you are most of the time. As for me, I dislike police states to my core. And my dislike realy gets ascerbated when rules apply to all, except apparatchiks. So far, I have not seen smoking gun pointing either way. The officers did not attack Azmai in his chair, but I also have not seen an x-ray of a broken nose. <ALL> I have a question: "How would you handle the situation, in the place of the security officers, should Azmai try to push his way past you?" |
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Nov-05-04
| | Gypsy: < Minor Piece Activity: Do we really know if Azmai tried to push his way past the security guards <Gypsy?> It might just be another thing ppl took for granted. > No we do not know that. We also have no evidence that he turned to return to his seat. I genuinely mean it as a hypothetical question: You have been given orders to keep things orderly for safety. Now assume Azmai tries to get past you. What do you do? (Btw, sorry for moving my post, I tried to fix a few typos.) |
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| Nov-05-04 | | Minor Piece Activity: Well the thing is that if we don't know anything for sure, how can we put ourselves in the situation? I would prefer not to 'pretend' because ppl will probably confuse what happened with what we imagine could have. If your point is that security guards must act quickly without knowing all information, and can maybe be prone to understandable errors, then it is well taken. =) |
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| Nov-05-04 | | Hidden Skillz: <pp> man ur swiss u dunno nothin about rodney king..lol funny but nonsense..and <swede> im not sure if u brought up the south argument but i do agree kinda.. imo the south was n still lives more in poverty than the likes of scandinavian countries..which leads to corruption and thats a fact.. |
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Nov-06-04
 | | IMlday: Interesting comments from all!
Philosophically I think a cold climate will produce cooler police officials
compared to Southern 'hot-tempered' climates. By that measurement Spain may be less temperate than Scandinavia but more temperate than say Nigeria, Haiti, Azerbaijan or Uzbekistan where anyone messing with the elite police would simply disappear. Cold climates tend to bring people together in a most 'Gens Una Sumus' way. The weather is a common enemy.Politicians naturally take the elite police to protect themselves. There were big honchos on the stage at Calvia and Azmai may have thought he was dealing with a Walmart security guy, a pawn, when actually he was facing an officer/leutenant/Knight.
Obviously he underestimated his chances in the situation.
But of course there are two realities: One is the legally provable situation, what is admissable in court. The victims past behaviour may not be admissable for the jury to hear; the specific case is decontextualized.
The other reality is the sum total of 'what really happened'.
We kibitzers can only guess at that.
If Georgia tossed their last round match to Armenia, that would not surprise me in the slightest. It would be par for the course. Complete reality and what the public sees are also two realities.
Philosophically this is just normal human behaviour. Sorry if it disillusions any idealists. The blunt fact is that FIDE ran better under Northerners like Rogard, Olafsson, Euwe than with Southerners like Campomanes and Ilyumzhinov who have squandered its respectability.
In my opinion of course. |
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Nov-06-04
 | | ray keene: this north/south climate discussion brings in montesquieu's experiments with the fibrillation of the sheeps tongue,i think from de l'esprit des lois 1748, buckles historical theories connected thereto and the attempts of the soviet historian georgy valentinovich plekhanov to refute. buckle of course apart from writing the history of civilisation was also one of the strongest chessplayers in mid 19th century britain. montesquieu -by experimenting with the tongue of a dead sheep exposed to different temperatures-made wide ranging conclusions about the effect of climate on mammalian/hence human action or inaction according to different climate zones. buckle was broadly a follower of montesquieu but plekhanov-who like marx and lenin believed in the inevitability of the proletarian revolution-vigorously opposed the climatist point of view since it undermined the ineluctability of the revolutionary process. buckles games will doubtless be found on this site-he died in damascus moaning-my book my book i shall never finish my book! if the experiments with the sheeps tongue ( an interesting forerunner of pavlov) are catalogued elsewhere than in esprit des lois perhaps someone cd let me know! |
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| Nov-06-04 | | Minor Piece Activity: Hmmm Azmai seems to like the Pirc and Robatsch very much. Have either of you two studied his games, seeing as how you two love weird openings? |
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| Nov-06-04 | | Swede: <Gypsy> You're right, Azmai's past isn't exactly complimentary to him either, but I wasn't trying to speculate whether Azmai is innocent or not. I was simply making a comment about the police mentality in Southern Europe. |
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| Nov-06-04 | | azaris: The comparisons to Franco's Spain are rather amusing if completely pointless. So Franco was Spanish. So what - Stalin was Georgian. All the people who weren't in the audience of the ceremony would do well to stop penning these "open letters". At this point it would be best for everyone if the parties involved would just apologize to each other (as I understand Azmaparaishvili has already done to the security officer in question) and let this whole thing rest in peace. |
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| Nov-06-04 | | vonKrolock: Personally, i wish Zurab improvements in his health ... I believe also that Spanish society surely have effective instruments to deal whith such affairs, eventually even punishing any abuse commited by Policemen or common security guards against foreign visitors - but, and here comes a question: How Chess and players will be protected from bad Chess rulers and leaders ?? |
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Nov-06-04
| | ray keene: yes-i recall he won a fine game v karpov with b5 in a pirc-no doubt he is a strong player. |
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Nov-06-04
| | IMlday: I've studied Zurab's Rats meeting the Austrian with a fast ..a6 and ..b5 and also his contributions to Steinitz Deferred Ruy's with ..g6. Very interesting. I'd love to spend an evening with him with a chess board, some vodka and no politics or cocobonking. |
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Nov-07-04
| | ray keene: this is the promised summary sent by the basque/spanish journalist leontxo garcia who is in my opinion thoroughly reliable. AJEDREZ
El detenido en Calviá destapa el polvorín de la FIDE
LEONTXO GARCÍA. Calviá
El patético incidente que clausuró el sábado la Olimpiada de ajedrez en Calviá (Mallorca) marca el inicio de una nueva época en la Federación Internacional de Ajedrez (FIDE), un organismo oscuro e ineficaz que cultiva el chanchullo, con 160 países afiliados. El georgiano Zurab Azmaiparashvili, vicepresidente de la FIDE, comparece hoy en un juicio rápido bajo la acusación de dar un cabezazo en la boca a un agente de paisano de la Guardia Civil.
Muchos ajedrecistas suscriben lo que dijo el jueves a este diario la supermodelo Carmen Kass, quien además preside la Federación Estonia de Ajedrez: “La FIDE es un espejo del mundo, donde la mayoría de los países están corruptos”. Y en ese mundo en miniatura se está empezando a librar una guerra entre el Este y el Oeste. En un lado están quienes proceden de países donde el ajedrez fue muy importante y aún es popular; entre ellos se nota una tendencia a pensar que los dólares crecen en los árboles, y que lograr un patrocinador o mecenas es coser y cantar. Por ejemplo, el actual presidente de la FIDE –y principal fuente de ingresos- es el millonario ruso Kirsán Iliumyínov, quien también preside, y con la misma oscuridad, la república autónoma rusa de Kalmikia; ese doble cargo es una excelente plataforma para negocios como los relativos al petróleo que se traía entre manos con el Irak de Sadam Hussein. A juzgar por las últimas medidas del presidente Putin contra los líderes regionales, a Iliumyínov le van a cortar el grifo.
Esa perspectiva alienta a los occidentales, esperanzados en obtener el poder. En 2002, la multinacional IMG, que hace decenios impulsó la profesionalización del tenis y el golf, vio tres focos de interés en el ajedrez: Internet (es el único deporte que puede practicarse en la red), herramienta pedagógica y escaparate de introducción en los países del Este. Pero también vio el alud de asuntos turbios que mancha la FIDE constantemente. Y escapó corriendo.
Uno de los líderes del Oeste en ajedrez es Javier Ochoa de Echagüen, presidente de la Federación Española y de la Iberoamericana, un organismo en trámite de creación que agrupará 23 votos, así como vicepresidente de la Unión Europea, cuya directiva está inclinada hacia el Oeste desde que, hace unos días, el detenido Azmaiparashvili y un ruso perdieron sus cargos a favor de un francés y un finlandés.
Sólo en ese contexto puede entenderse que el comunicado emitido ayer por la FIDE no incluya una sola palabra de disculpa por la agresión de Azmaiparashvili a un guardia civil que intentaba impedir su imprevisto acceso al escenario durante la ceremonia de clausura. Y que sí incluya una crítica personal contra Ochoa por no ayudar en la búsqueda de un abogado español para el detenido. Éste sí se disculpó con el agente herido, según fuentes policiales. Las próximas elecciones a la presidencia de la FIDE serán en 2006.
FIN |
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Nov-07-04
| | ray keene: sorry no translation a spanish speaker wd be more reliable than i am in rendering this into english. |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: A OTB tranlation from a Portuguese speaker: "CHESS The Calviá's imprisoned uncovers FIDE's "polvorín" (gunpowdre's barrel ?!)
Leontxo Garcia from Calviá:
The pathetic incident that closed at Saturday the Chess Olympiad in Calviá (Mallorca) mark the start of a new era in FIDE, an obscure and unefficient that cultivate the "chanchullo" (NT:?), whith 160 affiliated countries. The georgian Z. Azm., FIDE's vicepresident, attends today to a quick trial under the accusation of giving a head-butt in a non-uniformed "Guarda Civil" agent's mouth." (to be continued) |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: (...) Many Chessplayers subscribes what said at Thursday here in this Diary the supermodel Carmen Kass, who besides presides the Estonian Chess Federation: "FIDE is a mirror of the World, were the majority of the coutries are corrupted" And in this World in miniature, it's starting a War between East and West. In one side are those that comes from countries were Chess was very important and is still popular, amongst them there's a noted tendency to imagine that dollars grows in trees, and that to manage to obtain a sponsor or mecenas is "coser y cantar" (litt: to sewing and singing( ... ) |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: (...) For instance, FIDE's current President - and main source of incomes - is Russian millinaire Kirsan Iliumzhinov, who presides also, and whith same obscurity, Russian Autonomous Republic of Kalmykia; this double post is an excellent platform for business as those related whith oil from Saddam Hussein's hand. Judging frm Pres. Putin's latest measures against regional leaderships in Russia, Iliumzhinov will have the clutches cut off (NT "cortar el grifo" - kind of a guess-translation) |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: This perspective encourage the Westerns, hopefull from obtains power. In 2002, multinational IMG, that from decades now impeled professionalism in Golf and Tennis, saw three interst focuses in Chess: Internet (is the only sport that can be practised in the Web), pedagogical tool and "escaparate" (NT:?) of introduction in Eastern countries. But saw also the "alud" of troublesome that constantly soils FIDE. And scaped in a hurry. One of the western Chess leaders is Javier Ochoa de Echaguen, President of Spanish Federation, and of the Iberoamerican, an organization that's in it's creation procedures, and that will concentrate 23 votes; and also vicepresident of the European Union, which direction is leaning toward West since, some days ago, the imprisoned Azmaiparashvili and a Russian lost their charges to a French and a Finnish. Only in this context is understandable that in the noticve addressed yesterday by FIDE dont includes a single apologizing word on Azmaiparashvili's aggression to a civilian guard that intented to prevent his unexpected access to the stage during the Closing Ceremony" (...) |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: (...) "and that includes a personal criticism toward Ochoa for not helping the imprisoned in the search for a Spanish lawyer. This (Ochoa) yes, he apologized to the injured agent, according to policial sources. Next elections to FIDE will take place in 2006 END" |
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| Nov-07-04 | | meloncio: <vonKrolock> Good job, a perfect translation by now. I couldn't do the same. And about the Spanish sayings that Leontxo García writes: "polvorín" means in this case a explosive (very dangerous) situation; "coser y cantar (to sew and sing)" means a thing very easy to do or to find, and "cortar/cerrar el grifo (to turn off the tap)" means to cut off the financial funds. |
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| Nov-07-04 | | azaris: Amazing. He's actually managed to write an article that says even less about the actual incident and is again all about how evil and corrupt FIDE is. |
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| Nov-07-04 | | meloncio: <vonKrolock> More Leontxo's metaphors: "escaparate" (shop's window) means a way to show anything; "alud" (avalanche), a lot of things together in a mess. |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: <meloncio> thanks! Really a good Spanish-Portuguese dictionary would be highly advisable, but You know - we believe that our tongues are almost the same and that this is not so urgent for amateur translations ( by the way my State borders whith Argentina's Misiones State and whith Paraguay) <in the noticve addressed yesterday by FIDE dont includes a single apologizing word on Azmai> better: the notice addressed etc "chanchullo" (from google)
---
chanchullero changador
chanchullo
(Spanish)
chan·chu·llo
m. colloquial - crooked deal
m. pl.
andar en chanchullos - to be involved in swindles |
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| Nov-07-04 | | vonKrolock: <an obscure and unefficient that cultivate the "chanchullo" (NT:?),> better: "an obscure and unefficient organization that cultivates the crooked deal" Leontxo Garcia |
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| Nov-07-04 | | WMD: Valery Salov once wrote about 'The same individual with a venerable record of gross falsifications both on the pages of his magazine Jaque and the sports sections of El Pais, once confided to me his very apt journalistic creed: 'I'm not interested in the truth,' he told me. 'I'm interested in information.' It is hardly possible to flush all ethical dilemmas of mankind down the lavatory pan of one's greediness in a more concise way.' |
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