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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: <Colonel Mortimer: Why do I have to give reasons why I'm more of a pantheist than an atheist?> I thought you were an Agnostic? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: I thought you were a moderate christian |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: But let me ask you this question. If tomorrow I was to become a christian, and you were to abandon your faith and become an atheist/pantheist etc. What fundamental change, if any, would take place in you or me? Have a stab at answering that, or at least give it some thought and keep it to yourself. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: <Colonel Mortimer: I thought you were a moderate christian> I am, why would you think otherwise? <But let me ask you this question. If tomorrow I was to become a christian, and you were to abandon your faith and become an atheist/pantheist etc. What fundamental change, if any, would take place in you or me?> A huge change. We would each be fundamentally different people. At least I would be. Changing your religion isn't like changing your clothes! |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: <A huge change. We would each be fundamentally different people. At least I would be> How? And how do you know? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: And I'm not talking about losing your Christian friends, community etc - I want to know how it would effect you independently of that. Would you suddenly become a rapist for want of a better example? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: Allied to that - how important to you is the concept of an after life? If your religion didn't guarantee an after life, would that be a game changer for you? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: Is it my understanding that you do not commit rape or other heinous crimes on the premise that if you do, you won't live forever? Is that the fundamental change you are talking about if you were to abandon your faith? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: <Colonel Mortimer> Religion is how we understand life and the universe. A change in or loss of religion would necessarily affect that. How could it not?
Even independently of the loss of friends, community, etc it would change a persons orientation and understanding of existence itself. It would not necessarily result in criminal behaviour, and in fact the outward "appearance" may not alter that dramatically at all, but inwardly there would be a fundamental shift in consciousness. The concept of an afterlife is taken for granted and not something I preoccupy myself with. It's not a matter of "guarantees" but of trust.
Your understanding that a Christian does not commit rape or other heinous crimes on the premise that if we do, we won't live forever, is fundamentally flawed. It's about a personal relationship with Christ which naturally precludes any such criminal behaviour. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: <The concept of an afterlife is taken for granted and not something I preoccupy myself with.> Because you take it for granted, I would suggest.
How would you feel if it dawned on you that that when you die that's it, game over? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: I'm not sure how something like that could "dawn" on me, but the afterlife is inextricably bound up with Christ's Resurrection (see for example 1 Corinthians 15). |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: It actually runs much deeper than mere biblical quotation. Man's desire to grapple with his mortality is at the very root of religion in that it predates it. A desire to have one's immortality fulfilled is the greatest thing any religion can promise, in fact it is the whole basis of religion. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: The "mere" biblical reference articulates the Christian understanding of our hope, and our underlying confidence is found in the Power of Christ's Resurrection. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: Yes but what came first? Religion is mere artifice, a convenient panacea. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: Have you ever read "Myth Became Fact" by C. S. Lewis? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: Fact? Religion isn't based on fact. It's based on faith. Even the bible recognises that. If it was based on fact, then everyone would be a christian. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Big Pawn: Mort, your thoughts carry the assumptions of s 7th grader. What are you going ask next, who created the Creator? Lol!
Until you actually engage in the arguments themselves you've got nothing. Your silly dismissive generalities go nowhere. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Big Pawn: <A desire to have one's immortality fulfilled is the greatest thing any religion can promise, in fact it is the whole basis of religion.> Reasons, arguments, evidence?
Religion is one thing. Belief that God exists is another. All of my arguments on this website have been grounded in natural theology, which asks is there any evidence for God's existence apart from revealed theology. Revealed theology being scripture and religious doctrine. Natural theology looks at the world and wonders if there is evidence for God's existence there. However, this does not diminish the real reason most people believe in God, which is a personal experience of God in their lives. This is how most of the people in the world's history come to know God, but I think a good case can be made for theism even from nature, including logic, reason and philosophical arguments. The problem with you <mort> is that you are unable to cope with these arguments, so you won't even step in the ring. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Big Pawn: <mort: Religion is mere artifice, a convenient panacea.> Hmmm, a truth claim from Mort.
Any arguments, reasons or evidence for this? Or is it just a mere assertion? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Big Pawn: <Colonel Mortimer: But let me ask you this question. If tomorrow I was to become a christian, and you were to abandon your faith and become an atheist/pantheist etc. What fundamental change, if any, would take place in you or me?> Salvation is the difference. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Big Pawn: <mort: Man's desire to grapple with his mortality is at the very root of religion in that it predates it.> Argument, reasons or evidence? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: The world existed for billions of years before Christianity was invented. |
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| Jun-01-16 | | optimal play: Have you ever read "Myth Became Fact" by C. S. Lewis? <Colonel Mortimer: Fact? Religion isn't based on fact. It's based on faith. Even the bible recognises that. If it was based on fact, then everyone would be a christian.> I'll take that as a "no"
<Colonel Mortimer: The world existed for billions of years before Christianity was invented.> So what's your point? |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Colonel Mortimer: Religion didn't create man, man created religion |
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| Jun-01-16 | | Big Pawn: Thinking that God exists is not religion.
Mort, God exists and people know that. That's why people believe in God. It's not because of anything else. God is obvious. So tell us, what was your reasoning process that guided you to think that pantheism is more plausible than atheism? |
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