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| Oct-16-06 | | Marvol: Right. Here's my tuppence.
I think the moves ...R(f)e8 and ...Qd7 are tightly linked and black will likely play them both. There simply isn't a good other place for either of these pieces. Playing ...Re8 without ...Qd7 may give him tactical problems such as in the line 17...Re8 18.Nd4 Nd5? 19.Nxc6 (this now attacks the queen) Nxc3 (this too, but...) 20.bxc3 bxc6 21.fxg6 fxg6 22.Qf3! when black falls under siege. Vice versa, playing ...Qd7 without ...Rfe8 also runs into trouble: 17...Qd7 18.Nd4 Nd5? 19.Bh6 Nxc3 20.bxc3 Rfe8 21.Qd2 Bd8 and black doesn't look in great shape. And as I explained on YouRang's forum, I don't think ...d5 is doing black a big favour - turns the LSB into a big pawn, gives the DSB freedom it doesn't want (it needs to defend the holes around the king, not pin a knight on c3 against a rook), takes away a useful square for either his LSB or his knight. No ...d5 I reckon therefore. |
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| Oct-16-06 | | Marvol: No ...d5 means that our c3 knight is free to try and move to e4, where it is nice central active. After we've played Nd4, the bishop on c6 is not very free to move, esp not to b5 - another reason why the c3 knight is free to move elsewhere. A black knight on d5 looks nice, but we can take all its targets away (unless black plays 17...Nd5) by first shifting our DSB, then our knight (e4, maybe), then our queen to d2 to cover all the knight's target squares in our half of the board. Is our DSB good at h6? Yes, because in some lines (see above) Qf2 becomes a strong threat. Again, this hinders black's ...Nd5 even after both ...Rfe8 and ...Qd7: 17...Re8 18.Nd4 Qd7 19.Bh6 Nd5? 20.fxg6 hxg6 21.Qf3! when black's best is ...Nf6 22.Nxc6 bxc6 23.Ra4 (the aforementioned rook lift) and black doesn't look happy. The strategic message behind all this is... I suppose, one of our knights is good at d4, the other might find its way to e4 as soon as black moves his knight (lemme think of an exchange sac on f6...), one rook is good at f1, our DSB will find a haven on h6 where it adds to mating threats, and our queen is good at d2 but sometimes even at e2 (no real danger in the discovered attack along the e-file) where she still eyes f2 and f3 -.> f7.
Finally our other rook should stay on a1 to cover a5, and later on we can decide to lift it via a4 or to put it on e1 (f2 is troublesome as it can be hit by ...Ng4). This all can be binned if black plays an 17...Nd5 - need to think about that. |
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| Oct-16-06 | | Tomlinsky: Hello gents. Just a few thoughts for what they're worth before another batch of weeding and pruning in the binary garden. It's a little uncomfortable for Arno at the moment. Nothing fatal and neither side is winning or losing of course. But the dynamics of play mean that as well as finding good squares for his pieces he has the rapidly changing structure of the position to contend with. There's a little gust of wind on the board and it's blowing in his direction so he needs to be accurate and can't remain behind his fence for much longer. Looking at his position he is weak around his king (although that has to be proven), he has a bishop that has nowhere to go at the moment (and no quick route to where it logically should be), the f and g files in front of his king are directly and indirectly under attack, expansion on the opposite wing is tempered (at least for now), his queen only has one good square as far as I can see, his d pawn is easily blockadeable if pushed (if required) and the square f7 looks very inviting. We on the other hand have a bishop that is more like a queen in this position (am I overestimating here?), we have a rook on exactly the file we'd want it if it wasn't there supporting our pushed pawn, our rooks are connected and can contest and/or double imediately, the threat of a potential outpost on b7 is probably greater than the deed at the moment (arno doesn't know if/when we will take that option but sill has to build it into his plans while we don't), there's a nice 4th rank for swinging a rook across if desired, our queen is positively supercharged compared to her comatose counterpart. Of course we have a bishop bearing down on our king whose threat is dampened at the moment but we can swap that off at will as it stands (and if the board starts liquidating quickly into an endgame it may be an option worth taking). Our c knight needs to be on the king side I feel in the near future. A few exchanges may clear the path. It could be a very important piece and we are deinitely going to need pieces centralising at the very least (even if it's just because we can). I hope Arno takes the full 48 as it would give me more time to prepare these lines properly. If we can keep that little gust of wind going we're doing very well indeed. Okay, I'm off to do some more gardening. I hope to have some nice lines to be perused and ripped apart. |
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Oct-16-06
 | | Domdaniel: It's an unusual pawn formation in some ways - both sides have an IQP, but each has only advanced one square, to d3 and d6. In this situation a recapture on c3 or c6 would be broadly good for the side doing the recapturing, because it would reconnect the isolani to another pawn. I don't see either side pushing their d-pawn yet. The squares in front, d4 and d5, are too valuable as knight/bishop pivots. 17...Nd5 from Black does look a little worrying. We need to preserve the bishop, obviously. But ...Nd5 not only attacks it on e3, it also covers b6 and prepares bishop moves like ...Bf6 and ...Bg5. At least we can always play Bd4 without worrying about being hit by a pawn. |
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| Oct-17-06 | | AdrianP: Black's 'ideal' set-up would look something like
B on g7 (? f8); N on d7 -> Ne5; Rs on c8 and e8. Maybe K on h8 If Black achieves this, he will have a decent position. Ergo, there is some onus on us (on us an onus?) to convert our present initiative into a lasting advantage in the next few moves. If we exchange a knight for the light-squared bishop (which I think is desirable for us in quite a few variations) then ...d5 makes some sense. |
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| Oct-17-06 | | isemeria: <positions after 17...Re8 or 17...Qd7>
There's nothing forced so we have a choice. I think that we should bring our Knight on b3 to the action. More specifically, at the moment it is not doing much, covering a5, c5 and d4 which are not the most important squares at the moment. After 18. Nd4 it is much more effective: - Nxc6 is an option (if necessary!),
- adds support for f5,
- adds control to e6.
18. Nd4 is a simple "developing" move, improving our worst placed piece. The action is likely to take place on the center or K-side, isn't it? |
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| Oct-17-06 | | monad: <Dom>
Are you going to be Daddy, when Twinlark go lives it up on the beaches?Remember, Publius Syrus, he say:
<"Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm"> Let's hope there will be no turbulence in Twinlark's absence ;-) |
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| Oct-17-06 | | Marvol: I think Domdaniel has a good point when saying that recapturing at c3 / c6 resp. is good for the recapturing side. The resulting flexibility in the c3-d3 or c6-d6 structure is an endgame advantage. Therefore after ...Nd5 we need only worry about our DSB. If black captures our knight he has used two moves to remove a possible attacker of his kingside (or any other side :p) while he has removed a definite defender of his kingside. (Even just after Nd5, e4 has already become available to our knight) A similar reasoning should lead us not to be hasty in capturing the bishop at c6 after Nd4. Our knight is stronger at d4 than his bishop at c6. We do may need to keep an eye on q-side pawn breaks (...b5 gaining space) - but as yet after Nd4 black will need to play Qd7 first otherwise his c6 bishop hangs. |
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| Oct-17-06 | | monad: <Domdaniel: <Monad>
I've finally taken your advice. Nephew is visiting from Denmark and today gets a copy of Neil McDonald's Chess: the Art of Logical Thinking.
People _do_ listen, you know...>
Good to hear. I don't own that one yet. Let me know what he thinks of it. BTW: Mon Adjutant?
Mon Adversaire? (Hope not. I am cinematically told that the Devil wears Prada, and I do, but ....) Besides, that would make me your boss in one fell swoop: DomDaniel the Devils' assistant as a necromancing magician ???? I am working on the pictorial representation at the minute. Up to decorate the dreary games pages one day soon ;-) |
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| Oct-17-06 | | monad: <Dom>
I found this somewhere posted on a site in 2001. Some of it seemed funnily appropriate to us here: "A quick, decisive move.
I assume that the fell in question is the 'fierce' or 'lethal' fell, coming from the Old French fel.
Swoop, as we all know, means to make a sudden attack. Thus, "In one fell swoop, I stepped through the door" would probably be inap(p)ropriate usage. "In one fell swoop, I moved my queen to rook 4" is borderline. If you are a serious user of the english language, you should probably save this for sentences like "In one fell swoop, we fell upon the Huns and tore them limb from limb" So now you know."
Sometimes I just love the Internet.
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Oct-17-06
 | | Domdaniel: He has now played 17...Qd7 to reach this position (White to play): click for larger view |
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Oct-17-06
 | | Domdaniel: This is how <Nasruddin Hodja> sums up the new situation: Nasruddin Hodja: Ok, some initial, intuitive impressions: (1) The purpose of 17. ... Qd7 is to (a) clear the back rank for black's rooks, (b) add some extra protection to f7, given that white will be opening the f-file in the future, (c) provide a flight square for black's dark-square bishop, and (d) provide for the possibility of placing either the knight or the queen on g4 in the future. In this respect, black's Bc6 should not be pooh-poohed: it does have the potential to become a serious attacker in the future, and so 18. Nd4, while it may not be the best, should not be underrated either. (2) It is necessary to play Nd4 sometime within the next few moves: Nd2 is too slow and takes away the d2 square for white's queen, who may need it after black's rook deploys on the e-file. Also, we need to keep in hand the option of playing Nxc6 if (and only if) black looks like getting serious counterplay against g2. (3) 17. ... Qd7 does have the slight shortcoming that it slightly weakens black on the already weak dark squares, especially f6. If black should lose his dark-square bishop, he might be in trouble. (4) gxf6 should only be played if it contains forcing threats, as otherwise it does nothing other than making it easier for black to defend along the 7th rank. (5) At all costs, black must be prevented from closing the f-file with ... g5. That's why I share <monad's> visceral horror of 18. Bd4, which allows black to play ... g5 almost on the next move, as well as preventing the Nb3 from coming into the game. Given all of the above, 18. Bg5 strikes me as white's optimal move now, as it immediately puts its finger on the weakening caused by black's 17th and makes gxf6 a concrete threat now that two pieces aim at f6. As mentioned before, it also blocks ... g5 and prevents black from playing an immediate 18. ... Nd5 (assuming plausibly that black doesn't want to trade DSB's). Black's most plausible reply is 18. ... Re8, after which white can continue comfortably with Qd2 and Nd4, while black must react to the threat against f6. Ok, that's my _initial_ impression, which indicates 18. Bg5. Time to go check the forums. |
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Oct-17-06
 | | kwgurge: Any move here that leads or contributes to exchanging pieces helps black more than white. The analysis I have seen <RandomVisitor> <Thorsson> and <Monad> indicates that both Nd4 and Bg5 (which tend to transpose anyway) both make it easier for piece trades to occur.
Nd4 serves no current purpose. We do not want to trade it for the c6B yet and black is not going to take the f5 pawn so it defends a pawn which doesn't need defending. It's too early to tell if the b3N or the DSB is better on d4 and either one going there now impedes the other. It's also too early to tell where the a-rook is best placed. If we are still playing for a win and not a draw, we need to create threats against the dark squares around black's king and black currently has no threats we need to counter other than the threat of trading pieces and opening up his position. I think that I like the DSB better on d4 later. It is more threatening there than on h6,g5 or b6 and it can't be easily dislodged other than by black giving up his DSB. On d4 the DSB adds pressure along with the f1 rook on f6 and if the f6N moves the DSB rakes the a1-h8 diagonal. If we can later get the Q to h6 the DSB on d4 will be devastating. I would prefer to aim for this. I also agree with <Nasruddin Hodja> that we shouldn't allow closing the f-file with g5. Therefore, I favor Qd2 here. On d2 the Q is not susceptible to threats from Rfe8 or Nd5/xc3 and it eyes h6 if our DSB goes to d4 and the black N leaves f6. The Q on d2 also prevents g5 closing the f-file if our DSB moves. Those of us who feel that Nd4 is only 3rd or 4th best here need to coallesce quickly behind something like Qd2 (which preserves the options to play other favored moves) before ND4 runs away with the voting. |
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Oct-17-06
 | | Ron: There does not seem to be workshop for 18. h3. If Domdaniel doesn't mind, I would like to post some analysis for h3. 18. h3 Rac8 19. g4 Nd5 20 Bh6 Rfe8 21 Qf2 Bf8 22 Bxf8 Rxf8 23 Ne4 Rd8 24 Nd4 Qe7  click for larger view |
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| Oct-18-06 | | Elixir of Life: I think what we need is a strong center to break up arnie's defence. For me Nd4 seems the best. |
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| Oct-18-06 | | FHBradley: 18. h3 Nh5 19. Qf2 Bf6 20. Nd4 looks like a plausible line to me. <Monad>, I believe, suggested Bd4 instead of Nd4, but has white anything after 20. Bd4 Be5? |
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Oct-18-06
 | | Domdaniel: <Ron, FHBradley> Be my guest. I was actually one of the minority voting for 18.h3 - I think it looks very promising, and is a useful move in many lines. The only argument against it that I've seen (apart from the idea that it 'looks passive', which is absurd) was RookFile's contention that h3 might be needed for a Rook as part of a kingside attack. But - and it's a big 'but' by now - 18.h3 now has no chance at all of being played. I still have some hope that 18.Nd4 can be caught, but it's a very slim chance indeed. Going by recent vote numbers, there are maybe 100 or 120 voters yet to commit themselves - and they'd need to split about 80/20 for the #2 candidate, 18.Qd2, just to give it a fighting chance. Perhaps we should just be pragmatic and look at the position after 18.Nd4. Maybe h3 would be good next move... |
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Oct-18-06
 | | Domdaniel: As various people have said, a Knight on d4 is not a bad thing in itself. It's nicely centralized, as opposed to being somewhat out of play on b3. And it's no longer needed to protect a5, since black played ...Qd7. On the other hand, both of the 'targets' that Nd4 seems to threaten are not really targets. We don't need to protect f5 because ...gxf5 would be horrible for Black. And we should not play Nxc6 unless there is a _very_ compelling reason. Vague worries about the strength of a bishop pair don't count - as I said before, the recapture bxc6 would give Black connected central pawns and a half-open b-file. Which would be worth more to him than possession of the 2 bishops. We can plan to leave a N on d4 for a few moves. But it stops us playing Bd4, a useful move in some lines. And unless we play h3, ...Ng4 from black could be awkward. |
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| Oct-18-06 | | whiteshark: Hello to all (few) 18. h3 researchers !
I suggested this on page 434 and like to quote it here again and do some comments on other postings after that. <<whiteshark>: Junior is suggesting 18. h3 (!) as best move.'Is he mad ?' was my 1st thought.
No, the logic/plan behind it is the threat 19. Df2! and therefore you have to prevent Ng4. Qf2 looks good - black square (sic!) - looking to kingsside. So it is prophylactic.
It is a threat, but you may not move Qf2 - depending on the black answer. Possible answers: 19... Rfe8 20. Df2 Qf5 (nearly forced!) 21. QxQ gxf5 22. Nd4 Nd7 (or Nh5) 23. Nxf5 Maybe better: 19... Nh5 20. Qg4 Bf6 21. Nd2 Rae8 22. Nde4 Be5 Maybe worth to do some more research on it.> |
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| Oct-18-06 | | whiteshark: I checked why Rybka engine don't come up with 18. h3 variation: it's only due to the answer 18... Nd5.
All other have ratings similar to the <RV > main lines. After 18... Nd5 19. Bh6
( 19.Bd4 Tae8 20. Qf2 Nxc3 21. bxc3 Qxf5 22.Qxf5 gxf5 23. Rxf5 Bd8 = (0,00/d=16)) 19... Nxc3 20. bxc3 Rfe8 21. Qf2 Bd8 22. Nd4 Re5 23. Rae1 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Ba4 25. Ra1 (0,07/d=18) Maybe you can improve this variation for white, e.g. 21 Qg4 |
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| Oct-18-06 | | whiteshark: <<FHBradley>: 18. h3 Nh5 19. Qf2 Bf6 20. Nd4 looks like a plausible line to me. > 18. h3 Nh5 19. Qf2 Bf6 20.g4 (sic!) Ng7 21. Bd4 Be5 22. Bxe5 dxe5 23. Nc5 a) 23... Qd6 24. N3e4 Bxe4 25. Nxe4 Qxd3 26. Nf6+ Kh8 27. Ra3 Qd4 28. Tb3 Rad8 (=?/unclear) b) 23... Qd8 24. f6 Ne6 25. NxN fxe6 26. Rae1 Rf7 27. Rxe5 Qxd3 28. Qe3 (with small advantage?) But at the end all is not so promosing as may exspected... |
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Oct-18-06
 | | Domdaniel: I'm sorry to report that 18.h3, with 3 votes, just got pushed off the bottom of the top-9 display. The good news is that - with just over 24 hrs to go - 18.Qd2 has gathered some momentum and has a real chance of catching up. |
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| Oct-18-06 | | whiteshark: Yes I changed to 18. Qd2 a few mins ago, because I fully agree with, what you <Domdaniel> said in your last messages here, e.g.: <But - and it's a big 'but' by now - 18.h3 now has no chance at all of being played. I still have some hope that 18.Nd4 can be caught,...> |
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| Oct-18-06 | | Thorsson: <whiteshark: I checked why Rybka engine don't come up with 18. h3 variation: it's only due to the answer 18... Nd5. All other have ratings similar to the <RV > main lines. After 18...Nd5 19.Bh6 Nxc3 20.bxc3 Rfe8 21.Qf2> Qg4 and Qd2 look better here as they don;t allow Qxf5, e.g. 21.Qg4 Bd8 22.Nd4 Re5 23.Ra2 Bxa5 24.Raf2 |
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Oct-18-06
 | | Domdaniel: From <kwgurge>:
: I have been looking at 18. Qd2 and 19. Bd4 followed shortly thereafter by Qh6, Rf4 and Rh4. These lines seem very strong for white virtually regardless of any reasonable moves by black. If anyone can provide a refutation, please post it. Otherwise this plan with the objective of creating intense pressure on the dark squares surrounding black's king seems much better than either Nd4 or Bg5 which lead to pointless piece trades and don't appear to have specific follow up plans. Two sample lines are: A)18.Qd2 Nd5 19.Bd4 Bf6 20.Qh6 Bxd4 21.Nxd4 Nf6 22.Rf4 Kh8 23.Rh4 Rg8 24.Rf1 Qe7 25.Nc4 Bxe4 26.dxe4 Qf8 27.Qg5 B) 18.Qd2 Rfe8 19.Bd4 Nh5 20. Qh6 Bf6 21 fxg6
THIS IS A PLAN WITH A PURPOSE AND CONCRETE OBJECTIVES NOT JUST AN INDIVIDUAL MOVE THAT LOOKS GOOD AT 1-PLY. It is consistent with the moves we have previously made to weaken and then exploit the dark squares. It is an aggressive try for the win. PLEASE GIVE THESE LINES A LOOK BEFORE LOCKING IN TO A VOTE FOR Nd4 which doesn't seem to have much of a purpose beyond centralizing a piece to a square where it doesn't do much and covers only light squares. |
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