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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 963 ·
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Sep-27-06
 | | Domdaniel: More on the ...Bb5 idea from djmercury:
djmercury: <It's not really a threat at all. 12.Be3 0-0 13.N1d2 Bd7 14.Nc4! Nxd3 (14...Bb5?! 15.Nxe5!) 16.cxd3 Bb5?! 16.Nb6!> I didn't said black had immediately to do this move, but however Bb5 prevents the recapture with the Queen after Nxd3 in some lines. In this move order I think black will simply play N1d2 Nxd3 cxd3 e5 followed by Be6 and black setup is extremly difficult to break. |
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| Sep-27-06 | | classF: after 12. Be3 O-O 13. Nc3 we will have transposed into G Lane vs Epishin, 2003 |
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| Sep-27-06 | | Thorsson: Indeed we are, which is the antidote to djmercury's setup, providing we don't then play f4. Instead we need to find a way to make use of our Q-side space advantage. I'm think of a plan involving Nd2-c4-b6 Rfc1 f3 and then trying to invade on the c-file. We might then be able to play N3-a4 followed by Nxd7 and Nb6 and eventually send up with the B on b6 controlling the c7 square. Black's only recourse would seem to be to play for f5 himself. This needs to be tested. |
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| Sep-27-06 | | Wassily: <Dom> In the 12. Be3 d5 line, possibly 13. Bb6 Qd7 14. Nc5 And Black won't take Bxc5 as BxB and no more bishop pair. |
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| Sep-27-06 | | avidfan: <Thorsson writes:
11.Be3 d5 12.Bb6 Qd7 13.exd5 Nxd3 14.dxe6 seems to indicate that Be3 prevents an immediate d5 too.>12...Qd6 protects N/e5 (oversight, but outcome is still not too advantageous for Black.) 13.exd5 Qxd5 14.Nc3 develops with tempo .
13...exd5 gives him an isolated pawn, an unlikely line with his king on open e-file. |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: <kwgurge on 12.Be3> Be3 creates the immediate threat of Bb6, brings a piece off the back line with some support for our kingside, brings us a step closer to coordinating our rooks on the back rank, and as <Thorsson> has previously shown hinders black playing d5 Also with the B off c1, if black plays Nxd3, it is a simple matter for white to gain control of the open c-file after the cxd3 recapture. Be3 has the most going for it in this position, probably followed by Nd2 or Na3, depending of course on what black does on move 12. But, that's a debate for another day. |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: Subject: why 12.Be3 is better than 12.Nc3...
Thorsson says:
Thorsson: Do you wan't a piece on b6? You want to control b6 with a Knight? If so you should not vote for Nc3. The reason is that 12...Bd7 stops the Knight getting there via a4. |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: Here is <Willem Wallekers> Fritz-assisted investigation of possibilities after 12.Be3, translated from Dutch algebraic notation. Several lines have been looked at elsewhere, and some lines continue far into the hypothetical future. This material is probably best seen as raw source material for ideas. Use with care, but play through it if you're interested. <1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Bd3 Bc5 6.Nb3 Be7 7.Qg4 g6 8.Qe2 d6 9.0–0 Nd7 10.a4 Ne5 11.a5 Nf6> 12.Be3 12...0–0
[12...Nfd7; 12...Nxd3 13.Qxd3 (13.cxd3 0–0 14.N1d2 d5 15.e5) 13...Bd7 a) 13...d5 14.e5 Nd7 (14...Ne4 15.Bb6 Qd7 16.f3 Ng5 17.h4 h6 18.hxg5 hxg5; 14...Ng4 15.Bb6 Qd7 16.Qe2 h5 17.Nc3) 15.f4 f6 16.exf6 Bxf6 17.Nc3 (17.N1d2 Bxb2 18.Rae1 0–0 19.c4 Bg7 20.cxd5 Nf6 21.d6 Bd7 (21...Ne8 22.Nc4) 22.Bb6 Qc8 23.Rc1) 17...0–0 18.Rae1 b6 19.Nxd5; b) 13...0–0 14.f4 (14.Bb6 Qe8 15.f4 Qb5 16.Qf3 Qh5 17.Qxh5 Nxh5 18.Nc3 Bd7 19.Rad1) 14...Bd7 15.Nc3 Bc6 16.f5 Rc8 17.Rad1 Kh8 18.Bh6 Rg8 19.fxe6 fxe6 20.Bf4 e5 21.Bg5 Rf8 22.Rf2 b5 23.Rdf1; 14.Nc3 (14.Bb6 Qc8 15.Nc3) 14...Bc6 15.Bb6; 12...Nfg4 13.Bb6;
12...Bd7 13.Nc3 (13.Bb6 Qc8 14.Nc3 Nxd3 15.cxd3 0–0 16.d4 (16.Rac1 Bc6 17.d4 Qd7 18.Rfe1) 16...Bc6 17.Rac1) 13...Nxd3 14.Qxd3 Bc6 15.Nd4;
12...d5 13.Bb6 Qd7 14.exd5 Nxd3 15.dxe6 Qxe6 16.Qxd3; 12...d5 13.Bb6 Qd7 14.exd5 Nxd3 15.dxe6 Qxe6 16.Qxd3 0–0 17.Nc3 Re8 (17...Qf5 18.Rad1 Qxd3 19.Rxd3 Bf5 20.Re3 Bxc2 21.Nd4) 18.Rfe1 Qf5] 13.f4 [13.N1d2 Nxd3 14.cxd3 e5 15.Rac1 Be6 16.Bb6 Qe8 17.d4; 13.Nc3 Nxd3 (13...Nfd7 14.f4) 14.Qxd3 (14.cxd3 e5 15.d4 Be6 16.d5 Bd7 17.f4 exf4 18.Rxf4) 14...Bd7 15.f4; 13.Bb6 Qe8 14.f4 Nxd3 15.Qxd3 Bd7 (15...Nd7 16.Bc7 Nc5 17.Nxc5 dxc5 18.Qe3) 16.Nc3] 13...Nxd3 14.Qxd3 Bd7 15.Nc3 [15.Bb6 Qc8 16.Nc3 d5 17.exd5 exd5 18.Nxd5 Nxd5 19.Qxd5 Be6] 15...Bc6 16.f5 [16.Nd4] 16...Rc8 17.Rad1 Kh8 18.Bh6 Re8 19.fxe6 fxe6 20.Bf4 [20.Qh3] 20...Qc7 21.Bxd6 Bxd6 22.Qxd6 Qxd6 23.Rxd6 Nxe4 24.Rxc6 Rxc6 25.Nxe4 Rxc2 26.Rf7 Rec8 27.Rd7 [27.Nf6 R8c7] 27...R2c4 28.Nf6 R4c7 29.Nc5 Rxd7 30.Nfxd7 |
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| Sep-28-06 | | Marco65: <DomDaniel> Again on 12.Be3 d5: 13.Bb6 Qd7 14.exd5 Nxd3 15.dxe6 seems convincing
13.Bb6 Qd6 14.f4 Nxd3 15.e5 Qb4 (or Qc6) 16.exf6 that <cotdt> appears to have engine-checked convince me less, what if 15...Nxe5 ? |
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| Sep-28-06 | | monad: <Domdaniel: > I'm in need of a kind word. Getting tired of the 'snipers' on the main page.
Don't mind so much if they gang up on me, but to rubbish my favourite chess writers is beyond the pale. Offhand and unsubtle always gets to me. Chess is so subjective anyhow, don't you think? With so many closely parallel lines, there is no right or wrong. Anyways, this correspondence game that came my way, from you was it? Not funny, I don't think. It looks like it was started by grandmasters and finished by toddlers. Very odd indeed. But one strangely powerful move came out of it. One nobody mentions anywhere. I was going to ask the l--d m--ths, but they will only come up with a waspish dismissal. |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: The latest Rybka analysis from <RandomVisitor> plus his explanation of why some computers are better than others. See his Forum for more details. Now for the 12.Be3 crowd, here are Black's responses: 25-ply
Analysis by Rybka 2.1c mp:
1. = (0.11): 12...0-0 13.Nc3 Bd7 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Bc6 16.Bb6 Qd7 17.Nd4 Rfe8 18.Qd2 e5 19.Nxc6 2. = (0.13): 12...Bd7 13.Nc3 0-0 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Bc6 16.Nd4 Rc8 17.Nxc6 Rxc6 18.Bb6 Qd7 19.f5 3. = (0.13): 12...Nxd3 13.cxd3 0-0 14.Nc3 Bd7 15.f4 Bc6 16.Nd4 Rc8 17.Nxc6 Rxc6 18.Bb6 Qd7 19.f5 4. = (0.25): 12...Qc7 13.Bb6 Qb8 14.Nc3 Nxd3 15.Qxd3 Bd7 16.f4 Bc6 17.Nd4 0-0 18.f5 Bd7 19.fxe6 19-ply
5. = (0.22): 12...Nfd7 13.Nc3 0-0 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Rb8 16.f5 Bf6 17.Bh6 Re8 18.fxe6 Rxe6 19.Nd5 17-ply
6. ² (0.26): 12...Nh5 13.Nc3 Bd7 14.f4 Nxd3 15.Qxd3 0-0 16.Rad1 Bc6 17.f5 exf5 18.exf5 Re8 19.Bb6 7. ² (0.27): 12...Rb8 13.Nc3 Nxd3 14.Qxd3 e5 15.Bb6 Qd7 16.Ra4 0-0 17.Rd1 Qe6 18.Rb4 Qd7 19.Be3 8. ² (0.29): 12...Qd7 13.Nc3 0-0 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 e5 16.f5 Kh8 17.Rac1 gxf5 18.exf5 Rg8 19.Kh1 9. ² (0.29): 12...h5 13.Nc3 0-0 14.f4 Nxd3 15.Qxd3 Bd7 16.Rad1 Bc6 17.Bb6 Qc8 18.Nd4 d5 19.Nxc6 10. ² (0.36): 12...d5 13.Nc3 dxe4 14.Bxe4 Nxe4 15.Nxe4 Qc7 16.f4 Qc4 17.Qxc4 Nxc4 18.Bd4 0-0 19.Ra4 Notes:
I have 3 and sometimes 4 computers in simultaneous use on this game (including a Tyan TX46 server with 4 dual-core Opteron 880 processors). I usually set Rybka to "ultraslow" and "ultra optimistic" settings, which is the slowest setting and most accurate for long-term analysis. (This setting is not recommended for over-the-board playing.) Additionally, please note that I am not a chess expert. Please read the commentary and advice of other players at Chessgames Challenge , in order to make an informed decision on the best move in this game. Please do NOT vote for a move just because a computer says it is best. God gave you a brain and He intends for you to use it. I am suspicious of other chess engines when used for deep analysis - I have looked at Shredder, Hiarcs, Fritz, Junior and they may be good for over-the-board play but are not that accurate for correspondence play. There may be a delay in keeping this forum up to date, because I have to work, eat, sleep, etc. Your comments and suggestions are welcome - I value and respect your ideas. |
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| Sep-28-06 | | monad: Johanssen versus Iotov.
Did you go through it at all?
Weird and wonderful.
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: My own comment on the Rybka lines:
Meanwhile I've posted the new Rybka analysis from <RandomVisitor> to my Forum. I do think - with his processing power, hardware, ply depth etc - that his engine variations need to be taken more seriously than most. But I note that practically all the lines given follow 12.Be3 with Nc3 - bypassing the work we've done on alternative Nb1 developments via a3 or d2. As has been regularly pointed out, there are very good reasons for regarding Nc3 as a sub-optimal development for this piece. I don't know whether the bias is built into Rybka or is RandomVisitor's express choice, but it's a reason to take these line with a grain of salt. |
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| Sep-28-06 | | Thorsson: <Analysis by Rybka 2.1c mp:
2. = (0.13): 12...Bd7 13.Nc3>
Hmmm. Can't we play Bb6 here, as he can't move to the e8 square? |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: < Marco65: <DomDaniel> Again on 12.Be3 d5: 13.Bb6 Qd6 14.f4 Nxd3 15.e5 Qb4 (or Qc6) 16.exf6 that <cotdt> appears to have engine-checked convince me less, what if 15...Nxe5 ?> <Marco> 15...Nxe5 doesn't work. After 16.fxe5 the pawn is still forking the Qd6 and Nf6, and we come out a piece ahead (Black was briefly a piece up when we didn't recapture after Nxd3, but he gives it back by playing Nxe5 - and then we win another piece with the fork.) |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: <Thorsson> makes a point about 12.Be3 Bd7 13.Bb6, and I respond: : < Thorsson: <Analysis by Rybka 2.1c mp: 2. = (0.13): 12...Bd7 13.Nc3> Hmmm. Can't we play Bb6 here, as he can't move to the e8 square?> Yes, it certainly looks better - or maybe much the same, in Rybka's long-term view, but perhaps the beast has a built-in proclivity for Nc3 which overrides other considerations? More generally, I think Black has a problem regarding d7. His Queen, Bishop and either knight might want to go there. After 12.Be3 Bd7, we reach a position where 13.Bb6 is strong - because the Queen's escape squares are restricted (he hasn't castled yet) and because the bishop prevents ...Nd7 to challenge our Bb6. After 13...Qb8 (or Qc8) we can just develop the Nb1. Maybe to Nc3, maybe via the picturesque route Na3 (which stops ...Bb5) or Nd2 (options then of either Nc4 or Nf3). I like the idea of being able to alternate a bishop and knight on b6, however we reach the position. Nc3-a4-b6 is one way; Na3-c4-b6 is another. With 12.Be3 first, of course. |
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Sep-28-06
 | | Domdaniel: weisyschwarz: <Domdaniel> Where is the B moving after Be3? So is the B or the N going to b6? Is this multi-move enterprise really worth it? <Domdaniel> I was thinking of a line like 12.Be3 Bd7 13.Bb6 Qb8 14.[Nb1 moves where?] Interesting point. 14.Na3 and 14.Nc3 both prevent the immediate threat of ...Bb5. 14.N1d2 looks playable, but Black can counter with 14...Nxd3 15.cxd3 (when 15.Qxd3 is bad because of 15...Bb5). But on reflection (plus Fritz) I think this line looks good for us. The Nd2 isn't going to c4 immediately, let alone b6 - but the possibility stands. As does f4 followed by Nf3. Meanwhile Black has to castle, his rooks are miles out of play compared to ours, and if the c-file is opened we grab it first with Rc1. This, of course, is only one line. If 12.Be3 0-0 things are slightly different. |
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| Sep-28-06 | | fersonatu: It seems to me that in almost every variation of 12. Be3 we end up planting the queen knight on c3 within a move or two. If one compares with what is being discussed in the forum on 12 Nc3 where the bishop doesn't go to e3 we find that (12 Nc3) can transpose to the 12 Bc3 lines but Bc3 doesn't transpose the other way. In short ... since 12 Bc3 is more commital isn't it inferior to 12 Nc3? (Unless of coarse we plan to execute a plan involving Bc3 and Na3 or Nd2.) |
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| Sep-28-06 | | twinlark: <Dom>
Don't forget to amend your bio after 1900 GMT!
Catch up with you before then hopefully.
Thanks for all your help with this project, and the support you've been providing the rest of the team. Good stuff, all of it. twinlark |
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| Sep-29-06 | | Thorsson: <fersonatu: It seems to me that in almost every variation of 12. Be3 we end up planting the queen knight on c3 within a move or two...> You need to hone your reading skills. Many of us voting for Be3 do not want to follow up with Nc3. OTOH after 12.Nc3 Bd7 what else can White play except Be3? I've not seen the Nc3 guys come up with anything. Instead they keep looking at the inferior 12...0-0. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | viennalover: I still not convinced that 12... d5 doesn't work for black. I'm looking at 13. Bb6 Qd6 14. f4 Nxd3 15. e5 Qb4 16. exf6 Bc5+ 17. Nxc5 Nxc5 18. Qe3 Ne4. And white's position does not look obviously better. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | twinlark: Thanks Dom, like your summary. The positional summing up is the way to go. |
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Sep-29-06
 | | Domdaniel: Thanks, everyone. We won.
**MARKER DIAGRAM**
12.Be3 has been played. Until our move comes round again, I'm now going to host analysis of possibilities if AN replies 12...O-O, reaching this position:  click for larger viewIn this position Black has played 12...O-O and it's our move again.
Do we develop the Nb1? If so, where? Or do we jump in with 13.Bb6, hitting the Queen? Or what? Since this isn't quite the same as making a case for our next move, I think we can relax briefly and let our minds wander. It's AN's thinking time, after all. So feel free to indulge in idle speculation, or to construct far reaching positional plans. What do we do if he castles? What's the best way to proceed? Ideas, please. |
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| Sep-29-06 | | monad: <Dom>
Hiya,
If you would like me to make you a board with a line you like, send me the pgn. You can take it straight from your GUI if you feed your comments into the engine. Humming?
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Sep-29-06
 | | kwgurge: I think o-o is his most likely reply. 13. Bb6 would be premature until he moves a piece to d7 and 13...Nfd7 chases our B away with loss of tempo while increasing the scope of his KB. There will be advocates for f4, but there is no need to rush that move either. There are lines where f3 may be an important defensive move and I'm not sure I want to prompt the option of remaneuvering the e5 N to d7 or having it take our d3 B yet because our optimum recapture choice may become clearer after another move or two from black. This means that developing our b1 N is likely the best option. You can bet the Nc3 folks are going to be out in force for this move after their prior losses. It may be the right move but I want to look at the options first. If we don't, Nc3 could take a runaway lead in the early voting and never get caught. My gut instinct is Nd2 for the following reasons:
1. the followup Nc4 immediately puts the question to black regarding Nxc4 or Nxd3; if Nxc4, his well posted N departs for ours which has moved fewer times and our KB becomes more active; if Nxd3, we have a decision to make on how to recapture but it's a good N for a bad B, our N can't be kept from b6 and we may even have the option of Nb6 threatening the rook before we recapture on d3;
2. on c3 our N has less options and could become a target on the c-file;
3. after Nxd3 and a cxd3 recapture, we have connected rooks and can take immediate control of the c-file which along with a subsequent Nc4 and Nb6 would provide us with a crushing position on the queenside;
4. should it be necessary to provide additional defense on our kingside or to support a center or kingside push after f4, the N gets to f3 right away. In short, Nd2 provides maximum flexibilty while waiting for black to show more of his hand using Arno's own strategy against him. Sorry for such a long post, but I want us to consider moves other than Nc3 before it becomes a fait accompli. |
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