Jesus: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In stead of answering this as fast as you did just now, do you take the time to use your brain and research the "figure of speech" that might be used here? Checked different translations and contradictory texts in both Old and New Testament that can be found in abundance with little effort?

Wanna score points or something?

There is no support as i said for a "burning hell" and your one-liners come across more and more as short-sighted and stubborn.

But in the end aren't we all at some point...

Your choice, but no real basis <for me> to further engage in argument/discussion.

Could you provide me with book/chapter/verse please?

I would like to look into that (con)text more in depth.

Your faith is based on the same hearsay that there's is. They read the same Bible you do, and many of them believe that you're going to hell.

<<<<<OhioChessFan>>>> 1. I don't know. It's sophistry to suggest you need the answer before you accept the possibility such a God exists.>

I would say it's sophistry to believe that such an obvious and important question need not be answered.

<2. The Bible doesn't teach that.>

There are plenty who think that it does. One example is

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

<3. We are created in His image, and we have the capacity to choose right. Most don't.>

Would you give a three year old a loaded gun to play with and then warn him not to pull the trigger? The child has the choice to obey you or not, and the child has no real knowledge of what will happen. When it comes to knowledge of the afterlife and the Divine we are basically like three year olds.

<4. If a person lived an exemplary life, but had only one bad night where they killed someone, how is it justice if they receive a life in prison sentence?>

Because that person took a life and the public should be protected. Show me the law that says murders are to be tortured for the rest of their lives? And remember a human lifetime is not eternal.

<5. He has done so.>

No, he hasn't. In a world full of different religions and people who have never heard of Jesus an all powerful God could do better.

<6. People want what they want, today, consequences of tomorrow notwithstanding. That's the sad secret of life and is just as applicable outside the realm of religion.>

Have you ever met a person who would not pull his/her hand out of a fire?

<7. I might spend some time addressing that one. It is a spectacular example of the rationalizations of unbelievers.>

Eternal "punishment"

Greek: ko'la-sin

<Psalm 16:9-11> Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;

<Psalm 139:7-10> Wither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art their: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art their. If I take the wings of the mourning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

<Psalm 86:13> For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

The word "hell" seems to fit better, although I'm no scholar on translations either. Here are some more.

<1 Peter 3:18-20> "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit, through which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."

This is confirmation of Jesus' promise recorded in John 12:32 to draw all people to himself after leaving earth. Even in death, in the spirit world, unbelievers and sinners can still have an opportunity to be saved by hearing the message of Jesus Christ delivered to them.

<Matt 18:34> And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormenters, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

<Job 33:29> Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

<1 Peter 3:18-20> For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Yes.

<Checked different translations and contradictory texts in both Old and New Testament that can be found in abundance with little effort?>

Yes.

Either I'm wrong or they're wrong or we're both wrong.

<There are plenty who think that it does. One example is

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.>

Psalms is ultimately a book of poetry. Repeat 1000 times. I despair of how many people point there for doctrine when that isn't the primary, even secondary, intent of the book. There are any number of passages nobody would affirm is meant to be understood literally in Psalms. FWIW, I think that's a poor translation you just cited, whatever it was.

<Would you give a three year old a loaded gun to play with and then warn him not to pull the trigger?>

No.

<The child has the choice to obey you or not, and the child has no real knowledge of what will happen. When it comes to knowledge of the afterlife and the Divine we are basically like three year olds. >

I disagree.

<Because that person took a life and the public should be protected. Show me the law that says murders are to be tortured for the rest of their lives? And remember a human lifetime is not eternal. >

Okay, we've made progress. You are apparently giving up your point that a punishment lasting far longer than the extent of the crime committed is unjust. I guess there's an infinite number of questions you can ask that are hard to deal with in human terms. At some point, just like in a debate of a motion in a business meeting, you must call the question and make a decision. I think those like the website you're appealing to want to keep asking questions and never have to make a decision based on such facts as they have. You've suggested several times you won't believe in the God revealed in the Bible and that's final, though your discussion here suggests to me that maybe you could.

<No, he hasn't. In a world full of different religions and people who have never heard of Jesus an all powerful God could do better.>

How? Here you and I are, on the World Wide Web. You could join me and help spread the word to the world. God has nearly always used mankind to accomplish His will. He gave up that sovereignty for whatever His reasons. If man fails, I don't think that reflects on God. On a human level, I know some of the greatest parents in the world who had rotten kids. I don't think that reflects on the parents.

<Have you ever met a person who would not pull his/her hand out of a fire?>

<correction, punishment, penalty>

You know, there are plenty of scriptures in this world. If you believe that the Bible is eyewitness testimony then you have to assume that the others are as well. Some scriptures come well before the Bible's time, so why are you not a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim?

<<<<<OhioChessFan>>>> Psalms is ultimately a book of poetry. Repeat 1000 times. I despair of how many people point there for doctrine when that isn't the primary, even secondary, intent of the book. There are any number of passages nobody would affirm is meant to be understood literally in Psalms. FWIW, I think that's a poor translation you just cited, whatever it was.>

It was the NIV version, and it just goes to show that the message has been changed.

<<<<<OhioChessFan>>>> Okay, we've made progress. You are apparently giving up your point that a punishment lasting far longer than the extent of the crime committed is unjust. I guess there's an infinite number of questions you can ask that are hard to deal with in human terms. At some point, just like in a debate of a motion in a business meeting, you must call the question and make a decision. I think those like the website you're appealing to want to keep asking questions and never have to make a decision based on such facts as they have. You've suggested several times you won't believe in the God revealed in the Bible and that's final, though your discussion here suggests to me that maybe you could.>

And that's the problem. People make up fairy tales, people error, people are mistaken, people's account's have lead to thousands of religions and spiritual belief systems. It's all hearsay. You keep citing the Bible as eyewitness testimony. Well, guess what, eyewitness testimony is frequently wrong.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Accur...

<Researchers had done many investigations on wrongful arrests, they found that the large majority of arrests were mistaken because eyewitnesses have pointed out the wrong people.

How can three different witnesses point at the wrong person? Human memory is not like video or photo camera that can bring up a clear picture later in time. Our memories are often distorted by our schemas and other factors. If we are missing a piece of the picture when trying to remember something, our mind will replace it with something else.>

Here we see that eyewitness accounts are wrong after only a few days. The Gospels where written decades after the crucifixion and not by Jesus. The only experience that matters really is your own.

There are an infinite number of ways an all powerful God could do a better job of warning us about hell. Such a God could manifest itself to everybody in the world if it chose to.

<John 14:21> He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You keep saying that God loves us and does not wish for us to go to hell. Where was God when Hitler's father was beating him? Why did God not manifest and stop it and tell Hitler not to do what he did? If God has left us with nothing but the Bible then God abandoned us a long time ago.

http://www.alice-miller.com/article...

<With his own behavior, Hitler demonstrated to the world the treatment he suffered at his father's hands when he was a child: destructive, pitiless, ostentatious, merciless, boastful, perverted, self-enamored, short-sighted and stupid. In his unconscious imitation he was faithful to his father's example.>

Evidently, the Hebrew word is "Sheol", meaning "abode of the dead" (i.e. <grave>). In that case, the NIV translated a bit better than than the KJV:

<Psalm 16:9-11> Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the <grave>, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

<Psalm 139:7-8> Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the <depths>, you are there.

<Psalm 86:13> For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the <grave>.

<1 Peter 3:18-20> ** A difficult passage to understand, speaking specifically to spirits who disobeyed during the days of Noah. Not a good verse to build a doctrinal case upon, IMO.

<Matt 18:34> ** This was a parable about forgiveness. Not a good idea to expand the details of the parable beyond the point of the parable, IMO.

<Job 33:29> ** Is "pit" necessarily = "hell"? Anyway, if you are familiar with the book of Job, you know that most of it (including this verse) inolves Job's friends giving Job their uninspired opinions. Again, not a good foundation for doctrine.

<Philippians 2:9-11> ** every knee shall bow ... under the earth ... does this imply that hell is not eternal?

Yes.> Then a little apology from me is in order.

Of course being cut off contains an element of punishment, as following the final verdict there is no repeal. The punishment, that lies in the verdict and the ending of Life, stands eternal, but the pain will not be felt eternally for obvious reasons.

I fully support <YouRang> here:

<<<

<1 Peter 3:18-20> ** A difficult passage to understand, speaking specifically to spirits who disobeyed during the days of Noah. Not a good verse to build a doctrinal case upon, IMO.

<Matt 18:34> ** This was a parable about forgiveness. Not a good idea to expand the details of the parable beyond the point of the parable, IMO.

<Job 33:29> ** Is "pit" necessarily = "hell"? Anyway, if you are familiar with the book of Job, you know that most of it (including this verse) inolves Job's friends giving Job their uninspired opinions. Again, not a good foundation for doctrine.

>>> Foundations of (and other incentives for creating-) Doctrines indeed well brought to the surface.

Well, apparently it went from "hell", to "grave", to "depths." A perfect example of how scripture changes. The KJV came first, so I tend to think it's closer to the original.

<<<<<YouRang>>>> 1 Peter 3:18-20 ** A difficult passage to understand, speaking specifically to spirits who disobeyed during the days of Noah. Not a good verse to build a doctrinal case upon, IMO.>

Is that because it's a contradiction? :D

<1 Peter 3:18-20> For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit, through which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Sounds pretty specific to me. First the passage specifies that it is talking about spirits and not physical bodies. Then it says that Jesus preached to the spirits that went to prison thousands of years earlier. It's interesting that Jesus is not affected by time and that hell is referred to as a prison. Prisons are not designed to kill but to hold until a debt is paid.

<<<<<YouRang>>>> Matt 18:34 ** This was a parable about forgiveness. Not a good idea to expand the details of the parable beyond the point of the parable, IMO.>

When it comes to hell forgiveness is the key idea ... remember? That's the whole point of Christianity :) Jesus starts off the parable clearly likening it to Heaven.

<Matt 18:23> Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.

Then Jesus says that the "prison" (like the one from 1 Peter) is just until the debt is repaid.

<Matt 18:34> In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Then Jesus says that this is exactly what God the Father will do.

<Matt 18:35> This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Again, it seems pretty specific to me. Even in those days it was not a crime to not forgive somebody from your heart.

<<<<<YouRang>>>> Job 33:29 ** Is "pit" necessarily = "hell"?>

Yes, according to the book of Job at least.

<<<<<YouRang>>>> Anyway, if you are familiar with the book of Job, you know that most of it (including this verse) involves Job's friends giving Job their uninspired opinions. Again, not a good foundation for doctrine.>

The copy of the Bible that we have to day is much worse than that. We simply have the uninspired opinions of the thousands of scribes.

<<<<<YouRang>>>> Philippians 2:9-11 every knee shall bow ... under the earth ... does this imply that hell is not eternal?>

Yep, why would anybody bow to a god that sent them to hell and would not let them out? Did Jeffrey Dahmer bow to the judge who sent him away for life? I bet he would have if it meant he could get out.

<<<<<YouRang>>>> Anyway, do you have an explanation for Rev 14:9-11 ?>

<Romans 8:38> For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

<Psalm 106:1> PRAISE YE the Lord. O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth forever.

<2 Corinthians 1:3> Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

<Romans 11:32> For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

<Hebrews 13:5> Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

<Lamentations 3:22> It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

<Psalm 64:9> And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing.

<I Timothy 2:3-4> For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior. 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

<Romans 14:11> It is written: `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'

<1 Corinthians 15:22-23> For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn...

<I Timothy 4:9-11> This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, "specially" of those that believe.

<1 Corinthians 15:28> And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/a... - moderately elaborate, but specifically addressing Rev. 14: 9--

http://www.harvestherald.com/challe... -- very elaborate study/essay

I've done a lot more research though, which eg includes statements/admissions from the US Catholic Magazine, March 1981, which states that the doctrine of hell-fire originates not primarily from the bible, but from oral tradition, "in an effort to support <middle ground> between heaven and hell." Right.

Unfortunately the magazine's archive is not accessible on the net.

And the time eludes me for the moment to further type it all out.