|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 115 OF 849 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-27-10 | | The Chess Express: There are plenty of belief systems that accept reincarnation and reject hell. I don't think it's necessary to invent one. The main thing is to be true to yourself. <Jeremiah 29:13> And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. If a belief system doesn't make sense then your heart is not going to be in it. It all comes down to developing a personal relationship with God. I could never be close to the god of Rev 14:9-11 so I reject it. If I didn't I'd be a fraud, and I don't think there is any fooling God. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | YouRang: <TCE> <There are plenty of belief systems that accept reincarnation and reject hell.> <The main thing is to be true to yourself.> <If a belief system doesn't make sense then your heart is not going to be in it.> Okay, but I get the impression that your idea of religion is that it's all subjective. What makes sense to you is 'true' to you; what makes sense to me is 'true' to me. If that's how you see it, then we have different ideas about how truth works. <I don't think there is any fooling God.> No, but I think a lot of people fool themselves. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | The Chess Express: That's not how I see it. There is only one truth. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | YouRang: <There is only one truth.> Hmmm, okay. Then perhaps you think there is one truth, but that truth is unknowable, and the best we can do is pick a belief system that makes sense to ourselves. Of course, different people will have different ideas of what makes sense. Basically then, we are all making our best guess about what is true, but few (if any) of us can really hope guess correctly, since there is no reliable authority (such as a Bible) to guide us. In your case, you've decided that there is a God with whom people can have a personal relationship. Your God has love but no wrath, and somehow makes reincarnation work. Is that the right understanding of your view? |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | The Chess Express: <<<<<YouRang>>>> Hmmm, okay. Then perhaps you think there is one truth, but that truth is unknowable, and the best we can do is pick a belief system that makes sense to ourselves.> The truth is knowable. It's just not provable to anybody other than yourself. That's what separates science from spirituality. Imagine a science experiment that only works for you and nobody else. That's how spirit works because it is not an experiment. It's a relationship, a type of experience. The scriptures try to define the undefinable. They try to confine God with words, and of coarse they are unable to. There is both truth and error in all the belief systems. Probably the only people who would disagree with that are those who say that their interpretation of their belief system is the only true one and all the others are false. The purpose of any religion or spirituality should be to bring one closer to God. Who would argue with that? If you find one that does that for you then it serves it's purpose. <<<<<YouRang>>>> Of course, different people will have different ideas of what makes sense.> Hence all the different beliefs.
<<<<<YouRang>>>> Basically then, we are all making our best guess about what is true, but few (if any) of us can really hope guess correctly, since there is no reliable authority (such as a Bible) to guide us.> Spirit guides us ... but only when we let it. On our own we cannot know the truth. If we drop the assumptions and judgments and let spirit guide us to the truth then it will. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | YouRang: <The truth is knowable. It's just not provable to anybody other than yourself. That's what separates science from spirituality. Imagine a science experiment that only works for you and nobody else.> How is this not subjective truth? The truth that I "know" is provable only to me, and the truth that you "know" is provable only to you. <Spirit guides us ... but only when we let it.> But how do you know that? Or maybe I should put it this way: Why should anyone else believe that your ideas about the spirit are really true? Is there any authority on the subject higher than yourself? |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | The Chess Express: <<<<<YouRang>>>> How is this not subjective truth? The truth that I "know" is provable only to me, and the truth that you "know" is provable only to you.> It's objective because there is only one truth and it doesn't change. What I was trying to say is that when one experiences the truth it's impossible to make somebody else understand it through words or actions. They have to experience it for themselves. If you have never tasted an orange then it does no good for me to ramble on about how oranges taste. In order to know it you have to taste it. <<<<<YouRang>>>> But how do you know that? Or maybe I should put it this way: Why should anyone else believe that your ideas about the spirit are really true? Is there any authority on the subject higher than yourself?> Funny question. What would you consider to be a higher authority? Here are a few verses from the Bible <Psalm 48:14> For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death. <Isaiah 58:11> And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. <John 16:13> But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. I've found it to be a recurring theme in many belief systems, and for what it's worth spirit has guided me at times. When it doesn't it's usually because I listen to my ego instead. |
|
Mar-28-10
 | | OhioChessFan: <TCE: If you believe that the Bible is eyewitness testimony then you have to assume that the others are as well. Some scriptures come well before the Bible's time, so why are you not a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim? > The empty tomb. |
|
Mar-28-10
| | OhioChessFan: <TCE: There are an infinite number of ways an all powerful God could do a better job of warning us about hell. Such a God could manifest itself to everybody in the world if it chose to.> People would pass it off as a hallucination. |
|
Mar-28-10
| | OhioChessFan: <TCE: If I could point out a scripture that tells of a God of love and not wrath, that teaches reincarnation instead of hell, and that is based on a figure that actually walked the earth and performed miracles and was resurrected would you convert?> If you provided credible evidence that person rose from the dead, yes. |
|
Mar-28-10
| | OhioChessFan: <YouRang> I agree with this point you raise: (Arguing rhetorically) <How is this not subjective truth? The truth that I "know" is provable only to me, and the truth that you "know" is provable only to you....Why should anyone else believe that your ideas about the spirit are really true? Is there any authority on the subject higher than yourself?> |
|
Mar-28-10
| | OhioChessFan: <TCE: There really are no original works. All we have are copies, so there is nothing to compare them to. I would argue that a copy of a copy is more likely to be accurate than a copy of a copy of a copy etc. > I agree. The fly in the ointment is the more recent translations have the oldest manuscripts to work from. And they also have the advantage of increasing knowledge of the original languages. In any case, I think each translation must be addressed on a case by case basis. |
|
Mar-28-10
| | OhioChessFan: <TCE: And that's the problem. People make up fairy tales, people error, people are mistaken, people's account's have lead to thousands of religions and spiritual belief systems. It's all hearsay. You keep citing the Bible as eyewitness testimony. Well, guess what, eyewitness testimony is frequently wrong.> That's why we examine the testimony.
The Apostle Paul on quasi-trial, Acts 26:24-29.
At this point Festus interrupted Paul's defense. "You are out of your mind, Paul!" he shouted. "Your great learning is driving you insane." "I am not insane, most excellent Festus," Paul replied. "What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do." Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long-I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains." |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | cormier: Reading I
Is 50:4-7
The Lord GOD has given me
a well-trained tongue,
that I might know how to speak to the weary
a word that will rouse them.
Morning after morning
he opens my ear that I may hear;
and I have not rebelled,
have not turned back.
I gave my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who plucked my beard;
my face I did not shield
from buffets and spitting.
The Lord GOD is my help,
therefore I am not disgraced;
I have set my face like flint,
knowing that I shall not be put to shame.
Responsorial Psalm
Ps 22:8-9, 17-18, 19-20, 23-24
(2a) My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
All who see me scoff at me;
they mock me with parted lips, they wag their heads:
“He relied on the LORD; let him deliver him,
let him rescue him, if he loves him.”
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Indeed, many dogs surround me,
a pack of evildoers closes in upon me;
They have pierced my hands and my feet;
I can count all my bones.
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
They divide my garments among them,
and for my vesture they cast lots.
But you, O LORD, be not far from me;
O my help, hasten to aid me.
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
I will proclaim your name to my brethren;
in the midst of the assembly I will praise you:
“You who fear the LORD, praise him;
all you descendants of Jacob, give glory to him;
revere him, all you descendants of Israel!”
My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Reading II
Phil 2:6-11
Christ Jesus, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
coming in human likeness;
and found human in appearance,
he humbled himself,
becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross.
Because of this, God greatly exalted him
and bestowed on him the name
which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Gospel
Lk 22:14—23:56 or 23:1-49
When the hour came,
Jesus took his place at table with the apostles.
He said to them,
“I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer,
for, I tell you, I shall not eat it again
until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said,
“Take this and share it among yourselves;
for I tell you that from this time on
I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine
until the kingdom of God comes.”
Then he took the bread, said the blessing,
broke it, and gave it to them, saying,
“This is my body, which will be given for you;
do this in memory of me.”
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood,
which will be shed for you. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | cormier: <<ocf>> the gospel of St-John is preferable, he was the younger and softer of the apostle, St-Paul had a different cheminement of his own with conversion and mission evangelisation and at time he use's chapter that was his own life experience, of course the Divine come to meet the human, like many were praying for Saul so God would make Himself present felt and God did....i hold St-Paul of course to a high- level nevertheless .....tks |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | YouRang: <TCE><It's objective because there is only one truth and it doesn't change.> Ah, then we have different ideas about what 'objective' means. Something is not 'objective' by virtue of being true. It has to do with the *reasons* for believing something is true. From what I can tell, your reasons for believing in your ideas are all subjective -- not objective. When asked about objective authority, you provided a few verses from the Bible. And yet you admit that you pick which verses you want to believe and discard others based on what *makes sense to you* -- which makes even your Biblical reasons subjective. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | YouRang: <What I was trying to say is that when one experiences the truth it's impossible to make somebody else understand it through words or actions.> And yet, aren't you here, trying to make us understand the "truth" you've experienced through words? |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | dakgootje: <And yet, aren't you here, trying > It is equally impossible to lick your elbow or shoot faster than your shadow or find a German with a sense of humor; but that all does not keep us from trying! Just too much fun! |
|
Mar-28-10
| | OhioChessFan: <It is equally impossible to lick your elbow or shoot faster than your shadow or find a German with a sense of humor; > http://cache.boston.com/images/bost... |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | dakgootje: Also it is theoretically quite possible to lick your elbow and the trick for shooting faster than your shadow is standing in a pitch-black room ^^ |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | The Chess Express: <<<<<YouRang>>>> And yet, aren't you here, trying to make us understand the "truth" you've experienced through words?> Absolutely not. Again this is what I said. <What I was trying to say is that when one experiences the truth it's impossible to make somebody else understand it through words or actions. They have to experience it for themselves ... Spirit guides us ... but only when we let it. On our own we cannot know the truth.> <<<<<YouRang>>>> Ah, then we have different ideas about what 'objective' means.Something is not 'objective' by virtue of being true. It has to do with the *reasons* for believing something is true. From what I can tell, your reasons for believing in your ideas are all subjective -- not objective. When asked about objective authority, you provided a few verses from the Bible. And yet you admit that you pick which verses you want to believe and discard others based on what *makes sense to you* -- which makes even your Biblical reasons subjective.> I asked what you would consider to be a higher authority. So far you haven't answered the question. Once again if you need a science experiment to be objective then that's not how spirituality works. The truth is the truth, but it is knowable only to you through personal experience. Having said that I doubt you would recognize any "higher authority." |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | The Chess Express: <<<<<TCE>>>> If you believe that the Bible is eyewitness testimony then you have to assume that the others are as well. Some scriptures come well before the Bible's time, so why are you not a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Muslim?> <<<<<OhioChessFan>>>> The empty tomb.> If it all comes down to an empty tomb that is thousands of years old I'm not sure what that proves. Many tombs are found empty all over the world. There are many possible explanations. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar... <Scientific method demands a careful, systematic weighing of all the evidence, for and against. The documentarians have not done this. They have systematically ignored the unfavorable evidence: (1) they ignored those who should not be in the tomb, (2) they did not properly consider those who should be in the tomb; (3) they ignored the strong likelihood that Jesus could not be buried in the tomb. Their method is essentially, "Evidence that favors the theory is included. The rest is excluded.> |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | The Chess Express: <<<<<OhioChessFan>>>> People would pass it off as a hallucination.> Not if it happened to everybody, and besides it would be much greater evidence than the scripture. Those who have near death experiences insist that it's real even if they were atheists before. |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | cormier: some will resurect for the gehenna, others will resurect for eternel life and sainthood with God .....tks |
|
| Mar-28-10 | | YouRang: <TCE> <I asked what you would consider to be a higher authority. So far you haven't answered the question.> That's because I was trying to find out what YOU use as a higher authority than yourself, the existence of which is implied by YOUR claim that your truth is objective -- not subjective. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 115 OF 849 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|
Kibitzing
rreusser/...
