<achieve: hmmm - that explains it. Shockingly. Sort of... <<<

****Three pages back: <"The God who created the universe isn't capable of using proper judgment in punishing wrong doers. If He didn't punish forever, that would prove He has good judgment. If He only punished 20 years, that would be fine. But eternally? Oh no, that can't possibly be just. I realize it's His laws being broken, not mine, but my judgment is just as important and accurate as His."****>>>>

That's quite a halliburton you pulled there. >

I think <cormier> cleverly brought in the parable of the sheep and goats, and allows a move towards the topic of gathering groups to the right and left, then moving on to the related subject of resurrection/rising as seems to be apparently mysteriously addressed in Rev 20:4-6. Different gatherings at different moments in time with different consequences.

It also ties in neatly with the nature of punishment that has been discussed and debated sofar, and answers it quite clearly if you take the time.

For reference let me put up a few texts: John 5:27-29, Rev 20:4-8

Perhaps you already know this site, I just recently found out about it, very useful:

Though I thought I had toiled in vain,
and for nothing, uselessly, spent my strength,
Yet my reward is with the Lord,
my recompense is with my God.
For now the Lord has spoken
who formed me as his servant from the womb,
That Jacob may be brought back to him
and Israel gathered to him;
And I am made glorious in the sight of the Lord,
and my God is now my strength!
It is too little, he says, for you to be my servant,
to raise up the tribes of Jacob,
and restore the survivors of Israel;
I will make you a light to the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.

Responsorial Psalm
71:1-2, 3-4a, 5ab-6ab, 15 and 17
R. (see 15ab) I will sing of your salvation.
In you, O LORD, I take refuge;
let me never be put to shame.
In your justice rescue me, and deliver me;
incline your ear to me, and save me.
R. I will sing of your salvation.
Be my rock of refuge,
a stronghold to give me safety,
for you are my rock and my fortress.
O my God, rescue me from the hand of the wicked.
R. I will sing of your salvation.
For you are my hope, O Lord;
my trust, O God, from my youth.
On you I depend from birth;
from my mother’s womb you are my strength.
R. I will sing of your salvation.
My mouth shall declare your justice,
day by day your salvation.
O God, you have taught me from my youth,
and till the present I proclaim your wondrous deeds.
R. I will sing of your salvation.

Gospel
Jn 13:21-33, 36-38
Reclining at table with his disciples, Jesus was deeply troubled and testified, “Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” The disciples looked at one another, at a loss as to whom he meant. One of his disciples, the one whom Jesus loved,
was reclining at Jesus’ side.
So Simon Peter nodded to him to find out whom he meant. He leaned back against Jesus’ chest and said to him,
“Master, who is it?”
Jesus answered,
“It is the one to whom I hand the morsel after I have dipped it.” So he dipped the morsel and took it and handed it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot.
After Judas took the morsel, Satan entered him.
So Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” Now none of those reclining at table realized why he said this to him. Some thought that since Judas kept the money bag, Jesus had told him, “Buy what we need for the feast,”
or to give something to the poor.
So Judas took the morsel and left at once. And it was night.

When he had left, Jesus said,
“Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and he will glorify him at once.
My children, I will be with you only a little while longer. You will look for me, and as I told the Jews,
‘Where I go you cannot come,’ so now I say it to you.”

As a Christian, I believe in miracles. Scripture is full of them. But I don't see how belief in God's sovereign ability to execute miracles would preclude a scientific study of any natural subject. After all, miracles don't happen very often!

To rule out miracles a priori, or to insist that there is no such thing as the supernatural, seems to me a barrier to understanding.

First - scriptural "evidence" only gains momentum if supported on several/numerous occasions.

Second - in plain English, I explained that the <<< taking away of (future) Life, no repeal, effectively confirms the permanent nature >>> of the verdict.

Questions:

What and where is the exact description of god given punishment to be found in your view?

Where do you base it on, and provide supporting texts please.

At "what stage" do you think a guy like Hitler would be punished any different from a lone molestor?

Are you aware of different states in terms of when and why a verdict is being followed trough, determined and executed?

Please do not mind answering in case you only have a "yes, no" prepared.

Absolutely. I think the first line from Wikipedia's "Natural Science" article sums it up (emphasis added by me):

"In science, the term natural science refers to a **naturalistic approach** to the study of the universe, which is understood as **obeying rules or laws of natural origin**."

< If we lived 500 years ago, we might not believe that anything like the Internet could ever exist, barring a miracle. But I think you mean what we might call "real miracles," not merely "perceived miracles.">

Absolutely again. And I can't help but point out that your example of the Internet is a "perceived miracle" that we can thank real scientists for. Can you think of any "perceived miracle" that we can thank creation scientists for? ;-)

<As a Christian, I believe in miracles. Scripture is full of them.>

No problem. But the issue is whether *science* should be compelled to admit the possibility of miracles (and if so, just the Biblical ones, evidently).

<But I don't see how belief in God's sovereign ability to execute miracles would preclude a scientific study of any natural subject. After all, miracles don't happen very often!>

Well, I agree, but I'm not sure I understand your point.

You seem to be arguing *against* creation scientists. They are the ones who think science is precluded from studying natural sciences, because they want to erect religious boundaries that restrict the range of ideas that scientists might consider -- and accuse scientists of lying when those barriers are crossed.

<To rule out miracles a priori, or to insist that there is no such thing as the supernatural, seems to me a barrier to understanding. >

Here, I think you got it exactly backwards.

When real scientists encounter facts of nature that are hard to understand, they are faced with the incredibly difficult task of explaining those facts using only a *naturalistic approach*. Oh, it would be SO much easier if real scientists could just chalk it up as supernatural (as creation scientists do). However, real scientists know that this does NOTHING to advance our understanding.

<If only there were a way to conduct a scientific study of miracles...>

Well, in a way, that's what science does. Things that seem to be miracles remain miracles until science understands them.

Examples: For a long time, the rainbow was considered to be a miracle (God made it as a sign, right)? Other miracles include the tides, eclipses, lightning, and the strange motion of certain planets.

These miracles all became non-miracles, thanks to scientists who worked hard to seek *natural* explanations. Unfortunately, their work was made even harder, and sometimes even dangerous, due to interference and hostility from Christians.

You are losing me. What specifically are you asking?

<also perhaps on the following. I think <cormier> cleverly brought in the parable of the sheep and goats>

I think Jesus is literally describing the Judgment scene in Matthew 25 and don't think it's a parable.

Matthew 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:47-48 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

<At "what stage" do you think a guy like Hitler would be punished any different from a lone molestor?>

I don't know. Such common sense as I possess tells me the mass murderer is more deserving of punishment than the jaywalker.

<Are you aware of different states in terms of when and why a verdict is being followed trough, determined and executed?>

What do you mean by "states" here?

<Enough data worth of close investigation and self research have been exchanged by now. In case you hesitate to do so I would be happy to leave this subject for now and move on to related topics.>

I agree and think such is rampant. It's one thing to say those are outside one's realm. It's another thing to say since those are outside one's realm, they can't exist.

<If only there were a way to conduct a scientific study of miracles...>

Just because it falls in the realm of history and not science? We still have those 10 neighborhood witnesses the CSI team is ignoring while they try to figure out with scientific experiments what the mysterious man was doing at the woman's house at 3 AM. Why should the CSI team be bothered to acknowledge those non-scientist witnesses might possibly be right? Believing eyewitnesses?! What's next, reading the accused their rights?

What other discipline will you give such freedom to ignore other disciplines?

<Oh, it would be SO much easier if real scientists could just chalk it up as supernatural (as creation scientists do). However, real scientists know that this does NOTHING to advance our understanding.>

<What other discipline will you give such freedom to ignore other disciplines?>

All of them. Literature ignores science (e.g., science fiction) and yet contains truth of a sort (e.g., King Lear). Philosophy spawned Psychology and then went on to ignore it for about 100 years. Now Philosophers read cognitive science and include it in their theories. Economists ignored Psychology for a long time as well, but are now interested in behavioral economics (consumer confidence, anyone?). Psychologists ignore Sociology but seem to like Biology, and mostly ignore Literature. And so it goes.

Does it make any of those areas <holders of the truth>? Not really. Disciplines set up barriers and only cross them when they are forced into it.

Will science one day recognize miracles? I doubt it. Instead, science will do as <YouRang> suggests--it will <naturalize> the miracles--unless, of course, it has no choice.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

The Lord GOD is my help,
therefore I am not disgraced;
I have set my face like flint,
knowing that I shall not be put to shame.
He is near who upholds my right;
if anyone wishes to oppose me,
let us appear together.
Who disputes my right?
Let him confront me.
See, the Lord GOD is my help;
who will prove me wrong?

Responsorial Psalm
69:8-10, 21-22, 31 and 33-34
R. (14c) Lord, in your great love, answer me. For your sake I bear insult,
and shame covers my face.
I have become an outcast to my brothers,
a stranger to my mother’s sons,
because zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who blaspheme you fall upon me. R. Lord, in your great love, answer me.
Insult has broken my heart, and I am weak,
I looked for sympathy, but there was none;
for consolers, not one could I find.
Rather they put gall in my food,
and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
R. Lord, in your great love, answer me.
I will praise the name of God in song,
and I will glorify him with thanksgiving:
“See, you lowly ones, and be glad;
you who seek God, may your hearts revive!
For the LORD hears the poor,
and his own who are in bonds he spurns not.”
R. Lord, in your great love, answer me.

Gospel
Mt 26:14-25
One of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot,
went to the chief priests and said,
“What are you willing to give me
if I hand him over to you?”
They paid him thirty pieces of silver,
and from that time on he looked for an opportunity to hand him over.

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,
the disciples approached Jesus and said,
“Where do you want us to prepare
for you to eat the Passover?”
He said,
“Go into the city to a certain man and tell him,
‘The teacher says, AMy appointed time draws near;
in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”‘“ The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered,
and prepared the Passover.

A few years ago, astronomers were measuring novae to get accurate measurements of the rate of expansion. They plugged the numbers into their formula and found that the universe expansion rate is accelerating. This was such a non-sequitor to them that they rechecked their calculations and asked for other observatories to verify it before they published.

Acceleration requires a force. There is a force pushing the universe apart. So now the CC is back in General Relativity. As one physicist put it, Einstein's mistakes are our great discoveries.