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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 238 OF 849 ·
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| Jul-04-11 | | playground player: <Ohio Chess Fan> Don't you love it when people set themselves up to judge God? It would be hard to name a single problem in this world that is due to obeying God's laws. |
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Jul-04-11
 | | OhioChessFan: <playground> I think it's pretty obvious that I have a take no prisoners attitude. That is revealed in my comments on chess, politics, religion, most anything. However, I do try to consider how someone else sees things. I think that's distinct from trying to see things from someone else's point of view. Perhaps that strikes you as semantical hair splitting, but the distinction is apparent to me. In any case, while I think you are correct in recognizing people do set themselves up as God, I don't think that's how they see it. I think they see things from the viewpoint of "God must be as logical and advanced as the society we live in today. He must be beyond that, in fact." So that if a revealed God isn't as compassionate as the world of today, that means He doesn't exist. It sort of works in an informal logic syllogism. But if you begin to examine the matter, you quickly see that person must quickly affirm that they indeed do think they possess the wisdom of God, or they are qualified to judge God, or God's views of punishment must be reasonably close to their own. That is the logical ramification of their challenging the revealed wisdom of God. Most people don't consider the logical antecedents of their intellectual positions. That's why I think they can honestly deny that they are judging God as you say. But it is in fact what they are doing. For the most part, I think it's all a charade. I can't say I know a single person who was ambivalent about the existence of God before discovering how judgmental and punishing the God of the Bible can be. Every single person I've known who has addressed that matter was already nominally- nearly always totally- an unbeliever. In the vast majority of cases, I don't think it's a sincerely held objection to the existence of God. Instead, I think it's an ex post facto rationalization for a position they already held. The fact that the objections they raise are invariably the same passages found on the same websites tells me they aren't examining the Bible on their own. Instead they are taking the lazy way out and finding a website they know will be sympathtetic to their already held position and just copy/paste what they find there. I don't know what mental sleight of hand allows someone to do that and still pretend to be an honest and objective seeker of truth, but the transparency of the effort is shocking. |
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Jul-04-11
| | OhioChessFan: My minister made the observation yesterday that a great way for the United States to celebrate its independence today would be to recognize its dependence on God. |
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| Jul-04-11 | | Colonel Mortimer: Kenneth Rogoff |
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| Jul-04-11 | | Colonel Mortimer: You miss the point - I don't pretend to know God - you do. I consider it dangerous for someone to believe stoning is ok because God says so. That's the problem - you evangelists can't think for yourselves. |
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| Jul-05-11 | | playground player: <Ohio Chess Fan> See? We "evangelicals" can't think for ourselves. Some guy says so. Meanwhile, I can't think of any instances of anybody being stoned by Christians lately. Can you? If certain persons actually bothered to read the Old Testament, they might discover that it was really kind of hard to get yourself stoned to death. The man who was stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath was not stoned for gathering sticks but for purposely and publicly defying God--right after God had made Himself known to the children of Israel, and given them His laws. But under God's law, as given to Moses, no one can be put to death for anything except after being found guilty on the testimony of two or more eyewitnesses. There was no religious police force in ancient Israel to go around peeping into people's bedrooms. You really had to go far out of your way to get stoned for sodomy or adultery. Not that the private offense was any less a sin: but that was between the individual and God. The state was not involved unless the offense was in public. But, hey, we can't think for ourselves, we are never original like humanists are... They don't want to stone you for breaking the Sabbath, but don't get in their way! Mao, Stalin, Hitler--yes, we do so well without God. |
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| Jul-05-11 | | Colonel Mortimer: It's not a difficult question to answer - or is it? |
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| Jul-05-11 | | Colonel Mortimer: Here's some more stoning..to death. Do you condone this? Deuteronomy 21
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. |
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Jul-05-11
| | OhioChessFan: <Colonel> I think I've made crystal clear I have nothing to say to you. For those reading this forum who aren't aware of that, I have nothing to say to <Colonel Mortimer> This is the third time he's been told. Draw your own conclusions about the person who would keep posting here. |
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Jul-05-11
| | OhioChessFan: <PP: If certain persons actually bothered to read the Old Testament, they might discover that it was really kind of hard to get yourself stoned to death.> I figured that out too. You're the first person I've had mention it. |
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| Jul-05-11 | | TheFocus: <I think Jesus was explaining the purpose of the Sabbath Laws. I think there's no doubt Jesus would accept a doctor working on the Sabbath to save a life.> Many people are confused about what is <work> and what is not. Here are people that can work on the Sabbath and not break it. Soldiers, doctors, veterinarians, farmers, ranchers, <zoo-keepers even>, policemen, ambulance drivers and paramedics, nurses. There are many more. |
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| Jul-05-11 | | Colonel Mortimer: <OhioChessFan:> Yeah, yeah - just too hard isn't it? |
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Jul-05-11
| | OhioChessFan: <Focus: Here are people that can work on the Sabbath and not break it. Soldiers, doctors, veterinarians, farmers, ranchers, <zoo-keepers even>, policemen, ambulance drivers and paramedics, nurses.> I think a Biblical case can be made for all of them. I hope you can continue along the ceasefire trail. |
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| Jul-05-11 | | Deus Ex Alekhina: It is not clear to me that there were very few "death penalties" enforced in the OT. Presumably, there were as many lawbreakers (if not more) then as there are now. As for sexual immorality, they did reside in tents and all of the attendant noises would be apparent; nothing to stop curious people from barging in. Does Leviticus mention anything about lesser punishments? And,"the testimony of two or more eyewitnesses" has its drawbacks - two people could lie, or a murderer could eliminate the eyewitnesses. |
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Jul-05-11
| | OhioChessFan: <DEA> I've always had the sense the vast majority of death penalty violations didn't receive that punisment. As for the tents, yes, during the exodus, but they eventually worked their way to Israel and tended to live in walled houses. The potential problems with the eyewitnesses are just as true today. |
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Jul-05-11
| | OhioChessFan: <tps> take two dramamine and call me in the morning. |
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| Jul-06-11 | | playground player: <DEA> The penalty for being a false witness (always assuming the truth came out) was that you would receive the punishment that you were trying to have meted out to the person falsely accused. |
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| Jul-06-11 | | Deus Ex Alekhina: Justin Martyr in his Apologia: "we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem the sons of Jupiter" and then compares baptism, the eucharist, the virgin birth, resurrection, ascencion, crucifixion, water into wine, etc, in the pagan religion with that of the Christians. Of course, the "catch" is something called "diabolical mimicry" - Satan was so prescient that he created these concepts BEFORE Christianity came around. All of the striking examples of the power of Satan (e.g., YHWH allows Satan to mess with Job; Satan mimics YHWH & David wrongly carries out a census; Satan creates the serpent to tempt Eve; etc, etc.) show his extreme power. All of the evil in the world comes from Satan tricking people, so you would think that YHWH would destroy Satan, not the victims who have been tricked by Satan. Those who worship Baal or Moloch have been fooled, but these "fools" are also YHWH's children, why does YHWH punish his own children instead of the real culprit, Satan? |
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Jul-06-11
| | OhioChessFan: Justin Martyr doesn't speak for me, and I don't think much of his diabolical mimicry idea. But I do often wonder about God's allowing Satan so much sway in the world. |
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Jul-06-11
 | | chancho: James Brown
Night Train
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BV... |
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| Jul-07-11 | | playground player: <DEA> It's hard to imagine how Justin Martyr could have strayed so far off-base, biblically. In the New Testament, Acts 17, verses 19 and onward, Paul addresses the pagan Athenians: "...I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you... [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men... That they should seek the Lord... and find him, though he be not far from every one of us. For in him we live, and move, and have our being: as certain also of your own poets have said..." We can hardly help it if various commentators, in their own personal opinions, ascribe too much power to Satan. St. James reminds us that Satan can always be resisted. But we encounter people who, without knowing it, are Dualists or Cathars, who chalk up every adverse event in the world to Satan as if he were co-equal with God. To put it more simply, people are punished for being fooled by Satan because they consent to being fooled by Satan. |
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| Jul-07-11 | | Deus Ex Alekhina: In Revelations, I think that Satan is to be bound and tossed into a bottomless pit for 1000 years, at some as yet to be determined time in the future. My question is: couldn't YHWH have destroyed Satan before the Flood, before the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah?? Instead of destroying all those people, why not just destroy Satan and be done with this? Also, on this morning's tv show, Shepherd's Chapel, Pastor Murray said that Cain & Abel were twins, but that Satan was the father of Cain. Is that in the bible? |
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| Jul-07-11 | | Deus Ex Alekhina: In an earlier example,<pgp> pointed out that the man who gathered wood on the Sabbath was stoned for deliberately defying YHWH. However, there is the example of Uzzah who died because he had stopped the Ark of the Covenant from falling. <TheFocus> points out that soldiers, doctors, etc., can work on the Sabbath. Appparently, this was not always the case. During the Maccabean revolt, some Jewish rebels were surrounded on the Sabbath, and offered no resistance, getting annihilated. And Josephus recounts how Ptolemy's troops walked into Jerusalem unimpeded on the Sabbath. |
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Jul-07-11
| | OhioChessFan: <DEA: Instead of destroying all those people, why not just destroy Satan and be done with this?> I don't know. The best guess I have is that I think God allows people to be tested. < Also, on this morning's tv show, Shepherd's Chapel, Pastor Murray said that Cain & Abel were twins, but that Satan was the father of Cain. Is that in the bible?> No. |
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| Jul-08-11 | | wordfunph: <SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FOR XMAS 2006 Due to an act of kindness on the part of User: OhioChessFan and one other user, we have a special Christmas present. OhioChessFan donated eleven (11) one-year premium memberships to be distributed at random to non-premium members.> <OCF> is greattttt! |
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