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Sep-03-17
 | | Stonehenge: I think the board is too big, and I don't want to click on 'shrink' every time. Also the pieces seem to be drunk :) |
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Sep-03-17
 | | chessgames.com: We should probably turn Shrink/Grow into "sticky" settings, so that once you've set it to your liking the system remembers your preference and keeps it that way. |
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Sep-03-17
 | | Tabanus: Looks great CG. The board is too big now IMO, but board size in Preferences would be good for all. |
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Sep-03-17
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: Shrink/Grow should definitely be sticky, and the default board size should be smaller. But even beyond that, there's a problem in that Shrink/Grow only affect the board and not the buttons or the move list, which remain outsized. Ideally, there should be an option to have the move list appear to the right of the board, like it does in Chess Viewer Deluxe; with either pages or a scrollbar/scrollbar-like thing if there are too many moves to display at once. |
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Sep-03-17
| | SwitchingQuylthulg: Olga has problems displaying some characters (encoding issues?); for example, in the note to White's 29th move in Keene vs Martinovsky, 1985, pgn4web reproduces the pound sign £ correctly but Olga doesn't. |
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Sep-03-17
 | | Olga Viewer: <SwitchingQuylthulg> can you be more specific on the problem? I am seeing it just fine in my testing. It might well be the fonts available on your system. OLGA uses a list of fonts with our most preferred up front. We didn't want to force anyone to download a special font just for OLGA. As for size of the board, we will be adding "sticky" setting for your board sizes. So once you set it, it will remain. Our end goal was to make the board as large as possible in all displays. I appreciate everyone's comments and feedback - one note. When posting an issue please give a little more detail: Game tested: A link or game id is great.
Platform Tested on: Windows (version?)/linux/ Mac osx / Android etc.
Browser Tested With: IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, etc. And the version you tested in. And of course a general description of the issue and how you would expect it to behave. We will not be altering the way PGN is handled within OLGA because it follows the standard very closely. However, discussion has begun about supporting non-standard play such as Fischerandom games. Thanks everyone for taking the time to test OLGA. |
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Sep-03-17
 | | Annie K.: Encoding issue involving the whole page. One of the links in my top menu is titled in Hebrew, and displays correctly on every page, including game pages with pgn4web set; as soon as I switch to Olga, game pages display the Hebrew link as gibberish. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Annie K.: <Chris> thanks for your work! :) I think <Switch> is referring to this, in the annotated game text: ---
The Mind Sports Olympiad, now in its second year, features 40 different thinking sports from one-day chess to the IQ, creativity and speed reading World Championships. The first year, 1997, <offered �100,000 of prize money> and attracted numerous Grandmasters and world champions from around the world in the various disciplines. But the beauty of it is, it’s open to all.
---
The pound sign shows up as gibberish for me as well. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Olga Viewer: I also should have noted one other criteria in feedback Orientation: Landscape or Portrait.
On your desktop you will almost always see landscape but you can get portrait by resizing a window to have more height than width. Similarly on a mobile device you will almost always see portrait. But on many mobile devices you can rotate the phone to the side and receive landscape mode. So please also add what orientation OLGA was displaying when you ran into your issue. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Annie K.: Oh, and I'm on a Windows 10 PC (landscape) with IE11. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Annie K.: Interestingly, on my LG G3, the pound sign displays correctly, while the Hebrew font doesn't, but that has never displayed correctly to start with, and Olga game pages show the exact same type of gibberish as every other page. |
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Sep-03-17
| | SwitchingQuylthulg: There are other, more serious problems with annotations in Olga. Looking at L S Hwang vs H Kim, 2005, there's another encoding problem (<I have omitted confusing �sub-variation� parentheses and the like>), but also a much bigger problem in that most of the notes are attached to the wrong move. For example, the note to 101...Kg6 is attached to 109...Qb6+ instead, the long note to 112...Kf6 is attached to the last move (120...Ka7), and all notes that come after that are simply omitted. There's an offset that builds up over the course of the game; as the examples above show, it reaches 16 plies by the end. <Our end goal was to make the board as large as possible in all displays.> I think you got a bit overenthusiastic; at default size, the board takes up so much of the screen that there isn't even room for the buttons below it. I'm on Windows 8.1, Firefox 55.0.3, landscape, 1280x720 screen. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Olga Viewer: Thank you <Annie K.>. Most of these issues can be solved by installing more fonts on your device. This can sometimes be very involved depending on your platform but a quick search online will almost always turn up the solution. To make the conversation of fonts more transparent OLGA uses:
'font-family: Helvetica, Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Arial;'
for notes embedded in the PGN score. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Annie K.: Thanks. I know how to install fonts, however, I haven't tinkered with the fonts on this machine yet, which means that it's set to the local popular defaults and there are going to be a lot of other people from my region who see things the way I do - just reporting issues as requested. ;) Interesting that you set Helvetica ahead of Verdana and Arial, I think the site defaults are Verdana first, then Arial, and then Helvetica (which usually isn't installed on Israeli computers btw). |
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Sep-03-17
| | Olga Viewer: <SwitchingQuylthulg> We are still investigating potential issues with the notes. Thanks for your feedback on that we will look into it. As far as board size, after you use the "shrink" feature does the board size eventually reach your desired size? If so you will be very content with size before long. |
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Sep-03-17
| | chessgames.com: Technically we should not be inserting "raw" glyphs into PGN at all; instead of £ we should be writing £. I could write a program to scan PGN games for nonstandard characters but I fear the list of violations would be too extensive to fix by hand. |
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Sep-03-17
| | Olga Viewer: <Annie K.> in terms of displaying the Hebrew font, your issues do not fall on deaf ears. However, we (as far as I know) would not even be able to determine "pass" vs "fail" because we are simple Yankees. That being said we do want to make it work to the extent we can. It has been a busy week and I believe <chessgames.com> and I will need a day (maybe a few) to get most complaints addressed. The small amount of complaints here means that there are very few people that have tried beta OLGA yet; so we appreciate the ones who have. I know the variations feature is unusual for a "Chess Viewer" but please everyone try to give that a try when you have time. Our ideal use (beyond the analysis lab) is that you would make a variation, and then copy the text from the variation container into your comment. Often members have to do this by hand. Maybe it doesn't help much, but hopefully someone enjoys the small "features" as well. |
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| Sep-03-17 | | Keyser Soze: I like the new viewer. Nice control panel. I would strong sugest though that the pGN notation moves (and the control panel itself) could proportionally "shrink" alongside the board . I did that to fit on my laptop and got a little weird. |
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Sep-03-17
| | SwitchingQuylthulg: <As far as board size, after you use the "shrink" feature does the board size eventually reach your desired size? If so you will be very content with size before long.> The board does, but like I said (and like <Keyser Soze> said), the buttons, the move list and the settings panel don't scale with it. On a wide screen, the area taken by Olga stuff is much wider than the kibitzing area below it; which looks rather ugly and is not the case with pgn4web. Admittedly, it annoys me even more that I have to scroll past a lot of stuff (especially if the game is long or extensively annotated) before I get to the kibitzing (or even to Olga's own settings, and Copy FEN or Stockfish...); and that problem would be even worse if Olga wasn't so wide; so that cancels out. In any case, Chess Viewer Deluxe doesn't have those problems; there's never any need to scroll past anything extra since the move list is to the right of the board, not below it. I realize that Olga was built to be mobile-friendly and things like that wouldn't necessarily work as well outside landscape mode; but it would be very nice to have as an option; and I wouldn't even mind Olga's width in that case, though CVD managed to make it work without being particularly wide. (In case you didn't notice, <WannaBe> made the same point in chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #28096), and also reported other issues.) |
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Sep-03-17
| | Olga Viewer: The difficulty between balancing the scale of the board vs all of OLGA (read fonts, button sizes, etc.) is something we have taken very serious. At one point it worked as <Keyser Soze> and <SwitchingQuylthulg> have suggested. During testing this resulted with small content and large margins. The buttons would shrink and make using them difficult when the goal was to never hit the wrong button, ever. We are aiming to reduce the margins as much as possible. I don't know for sure but I assume most of these issues arise in Landscape orientation. Anyhow, I just wanted to let everyone know we are listening and have some changes planned. The bigger issue of "layout" that <SwitchingQuylthulg> brings up in comparing OLGA to CVD is a good discussion point. However, we chose intentionally to use the same layout for both portrait and landscape. In many ways this is to give you the same experience (as close as we can) to pgn4web. If you think about the effort <chessgames.com> has made to give each user a choice of viewer, it is likely one viewer will never fit everyone's wants. I don't mean to rule out the idea of changing layout, only to draw attention to the fact if we make side-by-side work, others who prefer the totem pole style we have now, will not be happy. OLGA is the chessgames.com viewer, so down the road it is quite possible it will fit the desires of all (through more preferences).And of course thank you again everyone for your time spent testing. |
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Sep-03-17
| | SwitchingQuylthulg: <I don't mean to rule out the idea of changing layout, only to draw attention to the fact if we make side-by-side work, others who prefer the totem pole style we have now, will not be happy.> Which is why I suggested making it an option; and there could be sub-options to customize it further. BabasChess, for example, allows switching between a move list view with columns and without annotations (somewhat similar to what CVD has, though not as pretty) and a move list view with no columns, adjustable width and optional annotations (more similar to what the ChessTempo viewer at https://chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/... has); so everyone can pick the style (and the width) they're happy with. |
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| Sep-03-17 | | Keyser Soze: Also, the default size could be way smaller. In laptop (chrome ) the board fulfill almost all the computer screen |
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Sep-03-17
| | chessgames.com: You can blame me (Daniel) if you think the default board is too big. Maybe it's my fading eyesight, or maybe it's my concern for mobile compatibility, but lately I've felt that "bigger is better" when it comes to diagrams. Still, I certainly understand the problems with being forced to scroll, especially when you want to go down to see something and back up again to see the board. I use CG too you know, and I find myself doing that too much with both pgn4web and Olga. Thankfully, the scaling is a built-in setting, there should be no problem in making everybody happy. So the verdict is: we need to make Shrink/Grow a "sticky setting" (you only have to set it one time, and it remembers) — and we've already mapped out the way to do that. The notion that the default size (at least in landscape view) should be smaller is also on the table since at least two people asked for it. Chess Viewer Deluxe, with its side-by-side layout, sidesteps that issue at a price: its shape is a firmly defined rectangle of a precise size, and can't flex in any direction at all. I would like to be able to say that we could make a CVD-inspired side-by-side layout possible simply by switching out a certain piece of HTML depending on a preference setting—but I'd like to run that idea by Chris first. It might not be as easy as I envision. By the way, in case you are curious: Olga is not named after any person in particular, living or dead. The avatar chosen for the Olga Viewer chessforum happens to be Saint Olga of Kiev, chosen just because her powerful stare embodies our attitude toward getting the job done right! Anyhow, coming up soon will be "sticky" size settings and possibly a different default size. Thanks to all of you for helping test it. |
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Sep-03-17
 | | Willber G: <WannaBe: I like the PGN/move display of CVD and CVD-II, right hand side, with moves in columns, like a score sheet.> I concur.
Good luck with the rest of the development and testing. |
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Sep-03-17
 | | WannaBe: Okay, okay, time for moi to throw in my twenty-five cents (inflation, you know...) This "job", being undertaken by Mr. Christopher Dean & CG.com is incredible, and I do mean <INCREDIBLE>. I sincerely hope, that Mr. Dean have assistants, and by that, I mean lots and lots and lots of assistants, or interns. =)) We, <WE> are talking about supporting Android, iPhone, tablets, laptops, PCs, convertible laptops/tablets with various (screen) size. Not to mention resolutions, got bad eye-sight, set the display mode to 175%. Oh, the board is off the screen? Too big? Cant see the moves? The ">" or "<" are off the screen? (Not on my phone, but on yours?!!?) Unless, every single option is made into a preference, and that have to be (cookie?) set to each device. You Wanna know how many different kind of devices I can sign in with? And how many different OS, and different browsers?? I can sign in with laptop Windows 7 with IE11, Android Phone running Chrome, iPad running Safari, Desktop Windows 10 with Edge or IE or Chrome, or FireFox browsers. Microsoft (especially) have tried, and tried, and tried, to make a "Unified" operating system across their Windows phone, laptops, Surface tablet, and PCs. And it took a team of (thousands??) engineers and it's still not (quite) right. (This is almost like Cecil B. DeMille with casts of millions making an epic movie, believe me). Kudos to Mr. Dean and Cg.com. The only reason why I got involved was that one stupid Java release by Oracle that caused CVD/II to not fully load the board for 5 minutes. =(( I actually downloaded the java code to CVD and spent 3 days looking at it, thinking something was wrong there. And it turned out it was the stupid Java update. Since then, I've posted "Verified" Java dates on CG.com's forum for others. Kudos for the great work already done. The fine tuning may just be the most difficult part of the project. |
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