< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 52 OF 58 ·
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Feb-02-10 | | Silverstrike: Sure thing :) Theres no rush.
Yeah, it's your turn to be white :) |
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Mar-12-10 | | rapidcitychess: Anyone want correspondence chess? I'm black.:) |
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Mar-12-10 | | rapidcitychess: Also, What is 1500 Glicko in Elo ratings? |
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Mar-23-10
 | | Honza Cervenka: Hi Sneaky,
I don’t know whether you have read my recent messages at Kibitzer’s Café or not and so I am posting it here too. On Monday of last week I have become proud father of (the second) daughter named Aneta. You can see her picture on the site of regional newspaper “Kladensky denik” (Kladno’s Daily) at http://kladensky.denik.cz/miminka/m... where is just now till this Friday (12:00 A.M. CET) running a polling contest for the most sympathetic baby born last week in regional maternity hospitals organized by the newspaper. Personally I am not much interested in such a kind of competitions but my wife likes it very much and she would be much happy to see our little girl on the top. Right now we are on the second place in very tense and close race with two other contenders and so every additional vote is very important for the final outcome. If you would like to help me to make my wife even happier than she already is now, just click on the link above, flag “Aneta Cervenkova, Stredokluky” (the first name in gray box on the right side on the screen) and hit the “hlasovat” button below. It is possible to vote repeatedly always after 60 minutes from one IP address... :-D Thanks and warm regards, Honza |
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Apr-27-10
 | | Sneaky: <queenfortwopawns> (and anybody else interested) You said that you'd try to answer questions that I have. Let me explain that I downloaded several lectures by the great expositor of physics, Richard Feynman. Most of his lectures I gobble up, but they are aimed at freshmen physics students, and some are event aimed at laymen. Then I stumbled upon one which was clearly over my head. Not miles over my head, but at least a few yards. Let me quote from it so we have a starting point: <I want to start with the antiparticles and describe why there must be antiparticles if you try combine quantum mechanics with relativity. It also permits us to solve another problem which was very mysterious pre-relativistic times, one of the grand mysteries of the world, the Pauli Exclusion Principle. (That when you exchange two particles, you get... um... you put in a minus sign.) It's easy to demonstrate that in non-relativist mechanics that if Nature started that way, it would be that way all the time. And so the problem would be pushed back to creation, and God only knows how that was done. <laughter>
But with the existence of antiparticles we make new pairs, and therefore new electrons, and the mystery now is, why does the new electron that's just been made have to be antisymmetric with respect to the others? That it can't get into the same state as the others which are already there? And so the existence of particles and artiparticles permits us to ask the question in a practical way, suppose I make two new pairs with two electrons and I compare the amplitudes for when they annihilate directly, or when they exchange before they annihilate. Why is there a minus sign? All these things have been solved in a beautiful way in the spirit of Dirac, with lots of symbols and operators and so on, but I am going back to Maxwell's "gear wheels" to try to explain to you, as best I can, these things in such a way that they appear not so mysterious. I am adding nothing to what is known before, this is purely exposition. And so, here we go, as to how things work, and why there must be anti-particles.> Quite a nice lead-in don't you think? So far not much is over my head, I even understand the reference to Maxwell's gear wheels. I also *think* I understand this minus sign that Feynman regards as the core of the mystery, but perhaps it's best for me to explain it to my ability, so that if I'm hung up on the introduction we can clear the air immediately. I didn't have it memorized but a quick google search gave me the formula behind Pauli's idea (for fermions) ψ = ψ1(a)*ψ2(b) - ψ1(b)*ψ2(a)
where ψ (psi) is the probability of electrons 1 & 2 being in quantum states a & b. ψ1 (really ψ sub 1, but my keyboard is limited) is the probability amplitude for electron 1, and ψ2 is the probability amplitude for electron 2. Ergo, if a=b (both electrons are in the same quantum state) the probability will be zero, which is to say, that aint' happenin'. I used google to refresh my memory on what a "quantum state" is and learned it's defined as a combination of 1) energy, 2) angular momentum magnitude, 3) angular momentum orientation, and 4) orientation of intrinsic spin. Here my confusion starts already. Did that web page forget to add "time" to the list? Or is that implicit? Obviously an electron on the tip of my nose might be in the same state as some electron that existed on an oak tree a million years ago, right? I have this desire to add "5) time" to that list, but that's just my own notion. Anyhow, once we get through the introduction it would be my pleasure to transcribe what follows after Feynman's "Here we go..." lead in. |
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Apr-27-10 | | whatthefat: <Sneaky: I used google to refresh my memory on what a "quantum state" is and learned it's defined as a combination of 1) energy, 2) angular momentum magnitude, 3) angular momentum orientation, and 4) orientation of intrinsic spin.> I would say you got a bad definition of a quantum state! :) A quantum state is, as it sounds, just a state that a quantum system may be in. This state will have defining characteristics, and usually one is interested in determining the minimum number of variables that can be used to define that state. As an analogy, suppose we have a staircase with n steps, and my 'state' is defined by which step I'm on. In this case we can easily define my state using a single variable - the value of n. But now suppose my state is defined by both which step I'm on, and which foot I'm standing on. Now for each value of n, we have both a left foot state, and a right foot state, so it's necessary to define my state in terms of two variables. The definition you got pertains to electrons in an atom. Electrons can occupy the same energy state, while having different angular momentum, or spin, so it is necessary to use those variables to describe the state. |
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Apr-27-10 | | technical draw: El Strangeo. Two days ago I started re-reading "The Quantum Challenge: Modern Research on the Foundations of Quantum Mechanics" (Greenstein/Zajonc) and then the theme pops up here at chessgames. I'll just be a listener lest I collapse the wave function. |
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Apr-27-10
 | | Sneaky: <I would say you got a bad definition of a quantum state!> OK, well then let's fix it before continuing. Wikipedia says <In quantum physics, a quantum state is a mathematical object that fully describes a quantum system.> a definition that I'm sure is 100% correct but also 100% vague. Is the idea that any mathematical construct I come up with qualifies as a quantum state, as long as it's capable of describing the system in full? If so, fine, but let's look at a real example. I guess what you're saying with your staircase example is, "it depends" ... the variables you use to describe a photon would not be the same ones that describe a neutron. (Or are they?) And as you add more particles to the system it gets hairier and hairier, I imagine. So let's take a simple example, a single electron, like one that comes out of the CRT inside my television. What variables would we pick to define its state? By the way if somebody sees <queenfortwopawns> around, send him over here. We're tourists with a Berlitz travelers' guide, but he lives there and speaks the language fluently. |
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Apr-27-10
 | | Sneaky: Funny side-note: I was doing a google search for "strangeness spin and charm" and I got a news article about Barak Obama. ROFL |
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Apr-27-10 | | whatthefat: <Sneaky: So let's take a simple example, a single electron, like one that comes out of the CRT inside my television. What variables would we pick to define its state? > Well, a TV is actually a pretty complicated system! So let's say we're just talking about an electron traveling through space, minding its own business. In that case, the electron's state would be well described by its energy (or momentum) and its spin - 2 variables. To take things a little further, the quantum states of a system correspond to the solutions of the Schrodinger equation, which you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C... Our example of an electron moving through space interacting with nothing else is a special case of V = 0. In this case, the solutions are waves, with the frequency/wavelength determined by energy/momentum. <Funny side-note: I was doing a google search for "strangeness spin and charm" and I got a news article about Barak Obama. ROFL> Wow, that's brilliant! :) |
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Apr-28-10
 | | Sneaky: OK, so wiki says <The most general form is the time-dependent Schrödinger equation, which gives a description of a system evolving with time.> So to answer my own question, "time" is not part of the state, it's implicit in the functions that define the state. But what about "position"? Reading further in wikipedia I see <V(r) is the time-independent potential energy at the position r> implying that like time, position is an implicit part of the wavefunction. It's a lot like the newtonian physics I did in college, where you come up with functions that define the location of an object with respect to time. I want to move slowly here because if a wrong assumption is stated as fact we poison the well for future nourishment. |
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Apr-28-10 | | whatthefat: <Sneaky: It's a lot like the newtonian physics I did in college, where you come up with functions that define the location of an object with respect to time.> Exactly, the key difference is that:
In Newtownian mechanics you define the position of each particle as a function of time, x(t). The velocity is then dx/dt, and the momentum is m*dx/dt. In quantum mechanics, you define the wave function psi(x,t) for each "particle". The thing is no longer at a discrete point, it's distributed in space. And what psi represents is a probability distribution - if we try to measure where the particle is, it tells us the probability of finding it at each position and time (x,t). |
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Apr-28-10
 | | Sneaky: <In quantum mechanics, you define the wave function psi(x,t) for each "particle". The thing is no longer at a discrete point, it's distributed in space. And what psi represents is a probability distribution - if we try to measure where the particle is, it tells us the probability of finding it at each position and time (x,t).> I understand that, but it definitely is worthy of stating and restating. It's important to emphasize that electrons are not like bullets or baseballs. From time to time you may hear me talk about the location of an electron but that's just because I'm not educated to use the right terminology. What I really mean is, the probability field that dictates its possible locations. One of the traps to understanding physics is an over reliance on metaphors. There's nothing wrong with thinking in metaphors--the smartest people in the world do it. And so, it's very tempting to think of an electron like a bullet, or a wave, or a cloud, or a string, or something that is familiar to us in our day-to-day lives. But if you take that approach, you're doomed from the start, because nature on that scale is so far detached from our normal experience that there is nothing that we can compare it to. Well, I should say "nothing except for one thing", and that one thing is mathematics. I think we're ready to continue. I'll post the next part of Feynman's lecture soon, and this is the part that blows my mind. He very rapidly and succinctly explains why combining our knowledge of quantum mechanics and relativity caused Dirac to conclude that antiparticles must exist. I really want to share his joy in understanding this great triumph of human reasoning--but it's going to take a little effort. |
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Apr-28-10 | | whatthefat: As a big fan of Feynman, I'm looking forward to seeing it! |
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Apr-28-10
 | | Sneaky: <So, here we go, as to how things work, and why we must have antiparticles...! Ordinarily, in quantum mechanics if you have a certain disturbance upon a particle which starts in a certain state, phi naught, then the state will be changed, and the amplitude that it ends up in, a state chi, as you all know is the projection of chi into A phi. There's a better "bra and ket" notation for that. We'll suppose that's true when we go to relativistic quantum-mechanics, too. Now suppose there are two disturbances one at a time: t1 at time A and another at a later time, B, at time t2. And we'd like to know what the amplitude is to restore the original state phi 0. The amplitude that we go from phi 0 to phi 0 is 1, the "direct amplitude"--and I'm doing this by perturbation theory--the next thing is the lowest order, in which first A goes into some intermediate state N which lasts for a little time (with the usual exponential) and then the intermediate state N is put into phi 0 by the operation B. This is the form in which two successive operations appear in quantum mechanics. Now if A and B are local--that is if they only exist in a small area of space and time; they are not very "wide spread"--we're going to make some simplifications. They way I'm going to do this, is first make some very simple examples, and then talk a little bit more generally. I hope you understand the simple examples, because if you do, you'll understand all of the generalities right away. At least that's the way I understand things.
At any rate, one finds a term, the 1 [points at slide] plus the other term. In this case, suppose that the intermediate states are free particles of momentum p. And if they have momentum p they'll have an energy given by their relativistic formula, which is the positive square root of p squared plus m squared. And here's the de Broglie waves that are rushing from point 1 to point 2, with momentum p and energy e. [points at slide] And we're going to suppose something: All the energies are positive. If the energies were negative, we'd know that we could keeping getting... well... we'd solve all our problems, wouldn't we? We could keep dumping "things" into this pit of negative energy and get extra energy out, and "run the world!" But we know we can't do that, so we're going to suppose that all the energies in intermediate states are positive. Now here's a surprise: if we put together these waves with some amplitude that's any function of p whatsoever, this amplitude to get from 1 to 2 is NOT--and in fact it cannot be--zero, when 2 is outside of the light cone of 1. And that's a shock to anybody that doesn't know that: that if you started a series of waves out, they can't be confined in the light cone! If the energy is always positive. And this is a very important thing, and therefore must be the result of some sort of theorem, and so I made up a mathematical theorem, the proof of which I don't know, but I'm sure it's right.
>
[roaring laughter from audience]
< Uh, in THIS application.
That is, if we put together a function only with positive frequencies to find this way (the integral over positive or negative) with any weights whatsoever, to produce a function f(t), then that function CANNOT BE ZERO for a finite interval of time. >
[ blank stares from audience ]
< Oh, I... um... you see, ordinarily you're a little bit surprised there, because you know that you can take a piecewise function that's zero over a range and Fourier analyze it, but then you'll get both positive and negative frequencies. And I'm insisting that there only be positive frequencies, we've got half as much data to work with and I have to have two functions, the real and the imaginary part of f, both be zero.Now maybe that some clever mathematician cook up a some way that can almost happen, with some kind of "e to the 1/x" or some terror, but I want it to be zero over an interval of time, you see, inside the light cone. Then if I change x (which changes all the phases any everything else) it's still zero. I don't think you can make it work, zero outside the light cone. So the point is, it's definitely so this function cannot be zero outside the light cone. In other words, there is an amplitude for particles apparently to propagate faster than the speed of light, and no arrangement of superposition can get around that. Therefore: if time t2 is later than t1 we have an amplitude, uh, a connection, like this in which a particle goes across faster than the speed of light. > |
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Apr-28-10
 | | Sneaky: < But because of the principles of relativistic invariance, there are axes: if these are separated by a space-like interval, there's a speed at which time t2 appears before time t1. Now we're not changing the formula, we have this same process, but we're going to look at it from this other coordinate system and what do we see? We see a process by which, at 2, the first thing that happens (you see time is this way now) a green "thing" and a black one come out and later on, the green one annihilates with the black one. To draw it turned a little bit, it will look like this figure [changes slide] which is a new process. This green line before used to go forwards, and now it's going backwards. So what we have to allow, and we have to include it, in order to get any type of relativistic invariance at all, is a section of paths running backwards: the possibility of a production of a pair, and an annihilation by a disturbance. In other words, there must be antiparticles!
In fact, because of this difference of the coordinate systems in two different speeds, so "which is ahead of which" depends upon what way you look at it, we can say this: that one man's virtual particle is another man's virtual antiparticle! Therefore first of all, antiparticles and pair production must exist, and second, antiparticle's behavior is completely determined by particle behavior--there's absolutely no freedom. You know what the particle does, you know what the antiparticle does. How? You just look at it from the other end. To summarize this very crudely (and I'll do this much more accurately and fancy later) if we reversed everything, we would reverse the sign of x, y, z, and t, then we should be using an antiparticle. I call C (conjugate, charge conjugate or whatever it is) the difference between a particle and an antiparticle. And about this change of the sign of time and the three directions of space: let P represent -- what's called a parity operator -- and changes the three directions of space. So PT is C. Right? So we're finished! We understand why there are antiparticles, and we understand that wonderful theorem that CPT leaves everything unchanged. OK? And therefore, since I've already done what I said I would explain, why there are antiparticles, I'm finished with the lecture. > [ laughter ] |
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Apr-28-10
 | | Sneaky: source: Richard Feynman video (DVD)
Dirac Lecture Series, 1981
Whew, that was not easy to transcribe. Very heady stuff, wouldn't you agree? |
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Apr-29-10 | | whatthefat: Interesting, I'll need some time to digest that. I half-understand a lot of what he's saying, but fully-understand not a lot of it. :) |
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Apr-30-10
 | | Sneaky: I'm right with you. I can always get my head around the details, and I think I appreciate the overall concept, but I can't really say I've digested the information yet. Perhaps what is required is to know what he mans by "that wonderful theory that proves that CPT leaves everything unchanged." I've heard about CPT but never really understood it. T is time, P is parity, and C is what? |
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Apr-30-10 | | whatthefat: C is charge. So the idea is that flipping T and P is equivalent to just flipping C. |
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May-02-10
 | | Sneaky: So an electron (P) heading in some direction (T) -- call it "north" -- has a negative charge (C). It's the same thing as a positron (P) heading south (T) with a positive charge (C). In other words, two different observers may be talking about this particle and one concludes it's a positron heading south, the other concludes it's an electron heading north, and they both are correct. ?? |
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May-03-10 | | whatthefat: Ah, not quite. The idea of these symmetry relations (C, P, and T), is that the laws of physics are invariant under these changes. So for instance, a universe in which all electrons were positively charged and all protons were negatively charged would behave exactly like our universe does if there is C-symmetry. Similarly for spatially mirroring the universe (P) or reversing time (T). Intuitively one might expect all of these symmetry relations to be true, and that seems to be the case for gravity, electromagnetism and the strong nuclear force. But weirdly enough, violations in C, P and T have all been exhibited by the weak nuclear force. But, if you invert C, P, and T together, the resultant universe seems to be indistinguishable from our own - this is known as CPT symmetry (at least there haven't been any violations seen yet, and if any are seen it will have serious theoretical ramifications). So what Feynman meant when he says C = PT is that a universe in which charge has been flipped is indistinguishable from a universe in which both space and time have been flipped. |
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May-07-10
 | | Sneaky: I understand what you're saying but a little confused at what you didn't like about my example. My notion of a "northbound electron" vis-a-vis a "southbound positron" was supposed to incorporate a flip in all three symmetries, C, P, and T. Where did I fail? Perhaps I was a little obscure on one point: when I speak of a "northbound" that just my layman's method of expressing the concept that the particle is in state A at time t1, and later in a state B (somewhere 'north' of state A) at time t2. Likewise, "southbound" simply means that it starts at B at t2, and ends up at A at t1, so it's the same thing, with T reversed. (It has nothing to do with earthbound notions of north and south, of course.) |
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May-07-10 | | whatthefat: <Sneaky>
Okay thanks for clearing that up, I see what you were saying now. You're essentially right: an electron traveling forwards along a path in space-time can be considered indistinguishable from a positron traveling backwards along the same path. This idea is actually utilized in Feynman diagrams. For example, an electron and positron annihilating to produce a photon can be thought of as a single particle that propagates first forwards in time (looking like an electron) then backwards in time (looking like a positron). |
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May-09-10
 | | Sneaky: Moving on, here's the part that really has me stumped: <Now here's a surprise: if we put together these waves with some amplitude that's any function of p whatsoever, this amplitude to get from 1 to 2 is NOT--and in fact it cannot be--zero, when 2 is outside of the light cone of 1. And that's a shock to anybody that doesn't know that: that if you started a series of waves out, they can't be confined in the light cone! If the energy is always positive.> Surely he's not saying that waves actually escape their own light cones--that's ridiculous. I get impression that he is trying to prove the existence of antiparticles using a kind of proof by contradiction, and the notion of waves not contained in their light-cones is the contradiction that proves that the premise is false. Sort of like in geometry, when after much effort you finally get to say "...and therefore the parallel lines A and B meet at point P, which is of course absurd, therefore the premise is false, qed." That is, if you insist that the wave equations be relativistically invariant, then you have to believe that the wave goes outside of the light cone. But you know that is absurd, so faced with a contradiction you have to "fix" your theory somehow, and the way to fix it is by adding antiparticles. To Dirac that was as simple as employing a minus sign, but the chalk on the blackboard had far-reaching implications for the real world. That's about all I can glean from this, which isn't a bad start. (Unless I'm utterly wrong in which case it's a disastrous start.) Perhaps a good place to go from here is to discuss what it really means to be "relativistically invariant". I used to think that it just means "conforming to special relativity"--you don't want your theory to run into contradictions when you have two observers on very fast moving rocket-ships, who can't agree on whether t1 came before t2. But after some reading I see that the idea is much deeper than that--or is it? |
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