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Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-08-13 | | Karpova: <Baden Baden, Villingen, Freiberg, Pforzheim, Stuttgart, Munich, Bayreuth, Kissengen, Nuremberg, Karlsruhe, Mannheim, Berlin> <Freiburg> instead of Freiberg (according to page 151 of the 1934 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung') or is there another source? Freiburg (im Breisgau) is the larger city and it is also also located closer to Baden-Baden, Pforzheim and Stuttgart, while Freiberg is in Saxonia. Or does the Alekhine book really state Freiberg? <Baden-Baden> instead of Baden Baden
http://www.baden-baden.de/de/
<Bad Kissingen> instead of Kissengen
http://www.badkissingen.de/de/index...
Perhaps <In the years after Bogo-Alekhine 29> instead of <In the years since...>? Dr. Max Euwe
former World Champion Jose...
<In the fall of 1933 both Capablanca and Alekhine were in the United States, but the champion reported that he was "indisposed" to discuss a rematch with the Cuban.> Champion. And "indisposed" needs a source, doesn't it? <The British Chess Magazine> Will this be italicized? Maybe indicate with ''
<At present, Capablanca could not arrange the funds.> This sounds a bit strange to me (but it could very well be correct), that "At present" refers to the past - maybe <At that time,...> <Bogoljubov had arranged a purse of $6,800 to be paid Alekhine should he win, and $5000 should he lose.> $5,000 instead of $5000 ?
<Games 1-3 were played in Baden Baden, 4-5 in Villingen, 6-8 in Freiberg, 9-10 in Pforzheim, 11-12 in Stuttgart, 13-15 in Munich, 16 in Bayreuth, 17-18 in Kissingen, 19-20 in Nuremberg, 21 in Karlsruhe, 22-24 in Mannheim, and 25-26 in Berlin.4> see above
<According to The Neue Wiener Schachzeitung> if <The> then <the> as the english definite article is not part of the name.
Again, 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung' and 'American Chess Bulletin' will be italicized? <The British Chess Magazine seemed somewhat less optimistic about the potential quality of the match, predicting that "With all deference to Bogoljubow's chess strength, it is difficult to imagine him testing the holder to the utmost.> It is not necessarily implied that the quality of games needs to be low, even if the contestants are of unequal strength. <By game 17, with the champion> Champion
<and Bogoljubov's play: :> One : too much |
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Sep-08-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Thank you so much!
Point by point:
PART ONE
<<Baden Baden, Villingen, Freiberg, Pforzheim, Stuttgart, Munich, Bayreuth, Kissengen, Nuremberg, Karlsruhe, Mannheim, Berlin>
<Freiburg> instead of Freiberg (according to page 151 of the 1934 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung') or is there another source? Freiburg (im Breisgau) is the larger city and it is also also located closer to Baden-Baden, Pforzheim and Stuttgart, while Freiberg is in Saxonia. Or does the Alekhine book really state Freiberg?<Baden-Baden> instead of Baden Baden http://www.baden-baden.de/de/ <Bad Kissingen> instead of Kissengen http://www.badkissingen.de/de/index... > City names changed to what you said.
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<Perhaps <In the years after Bogo-Alekhine 29> instead of <In the years since...>?> My gut is wanting to keep "since," but let's wait for <Ohio> on this? #########################
<Dr. Max Euwe >
I have been discussing this with <crawfb5> and we think that the use of any non chess related titles is anachronistic- and that the anachronistic aspect outweighs the positive aspect of retaining the original contemporaneous convention on this issue. But we can still argue about it further. #######################
<former World Champion Jose... > I cut out "the" and it now reads <former world champion Jose...> <crawfb5> and I were looking at the html versions of the drafts and we don't think the capitalization template we agreed upon works. We both think it looks better with as little capitalization as possible. Again, this is consistent with more modern convention- frequent capitalization looks a little anachronistic. We can still argue about this more. ##################
<<In the fall of 1933 both Capablanca and Alekhine were in the United States, but the champion reported that he was "indisposed" to discuss a rematch with the Cuban.>Champion. And "indisposed" needs a source, doesn't it?> Reference note added
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<<The British Chess Magazine>Will this be italicized? Maybe indicate with '' > We don't know yet. We need to know how it will look in html, and we should also wait for <crawfb5> on this, since he is the one manipulating the code. |
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Sep-08-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: PART TWO
<<At present, Capablanca could not arrange the funds.>This sounds a bit strange to me (but it could very well be correct), that "At present" refers to the past - maybe <At that time,...>> I think "at that time" is better so I changed it.
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<$5,000 instead of $5000 ?> I think that's better also, I changed it. We need to make that change on <crawfb5's> draft also. ###################
<<Games 1-3 were played in Baden Baden, 4-5 in Villingen, 6-8 in Freiberg, 9-10 in Pforzheim, 11-12 in Stuttgart, 13-15 in Munich, 16 in Bayreuth, 17-18 in Kissingen, 19-20 in Nuremberg, 21 in Karlsruhe, 22-24 in Mannheim, and 25-26 in Berlin.4>see above >
Fixed
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<<According to The Neue Wiener Schachzeitung>if <The> then <the> as the english definite article is not part of the name. Again, 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung' and 'American Chess Bulletin' will be italicized?> Fixed to "the." We have to wait to decide on the other issue. ###################
<<The British Chess Magazine seemed somewhat less optimistic about the potential quality of the match, predicting that "With all deference to Bogoljubow's chess strength, it is difficult to imagine him testing the holder to the utmost.>It is not necessarily implied that the quality of games needs to be low, even if the contestants are of unequal strength.> Quite right. I changed it to read:
<The British Chess Magazine predicted that "With all deference to Bogoljubow's chess strength, it is difficult to imagine him testing the holder to the utmost."> #################
<<By game 17, with the champion>Champion >
See above, but we can still argue more about it.
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<<and Bogoljubov's play: :>One : too much>
Fixed!
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Thank you so much <Karpova> for such close reading and correction. |
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| Sep-08-13 | | crawfb5: Lasker objected to Marshall's 1903 challenge on a couple of points. In his letter to Shipley, Lasker wrote "[Marshall's] condition for instance that the match must be played in England and before the end of the year virtually prescribes date and place." Marshall was in England at the time. Lasker's letter of reply reprinted in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of 4 Aug 1903, page 15 flatly stated "Time and place of the match to be determined by the holder of the title." An even more serious issue was the money. Marshall's challenge letter was printed in the Eagle 8 Jul 1903, page 12 in which he suggests stakes of 100 pounds or $500 per side. Lasker's reply was 400 pounds per side was his minimum. <You want to pick the time and place and play for a fourth of the money I consider a minimum? Forget you.> I think the only one who took Marhsall's conditions seriously was Marshall himself. Even this early Lasker was in favor of moving to a purse system. At the end of his reply to Marshall he wrote, "I consider it a hardship that chess champions should be obliged to find their own stakes, and that in no distant time an international organization will be formed to organize championship matches on the basis of purses." In Lasker's letter to Shipley he said a purse system would be better for both players. |
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| Sep-08-13 | | crawfb5: The 1904 Lasker-Marshall negotiations seems to have finally broken down due to Marshall's backers: <"...his backers were not pleased with Dr. Lasker's attitude in the world championship negotiations and had refused to post the $500 forfeit demanded under the champion's terms." -- Marshall quoted prior to departing for Europe to play Janowski, Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 8 Jan 1905, page 13>. The final letters to each other were printed in the <American Chess Bulletin, 1905, pages 1-2>. Earlier letters may be seen in the <American Chess Bulletin, 1904, pages 130-131.> Lasker had demanded a $500 deposit from Marshall, selection of a second not employed by a newspaper, and reserved the right to chose time and location of the match. Marshall felt strongly about the choice of a particular newspaperman and Lasker withdrew that objection. Marshall's backers were unwilling to make the $500 deposit without assurances Lasker would do the same and took exception to Lasker reserving the right to name the match location. With his funding at serious risk, Marshall broke off negotiations. |
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Sep-08-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <Frank James Marshall was born in New York City, but spent his youth in Montreal. He returned to New York City as a young man of 15> Typically, one is a man at 18. I can't think of anything better, certainly not "child", "boy", nope, "adolescent", shudder, but that catches my attention. <Marshall was usually more successful in tournaments than match play, and the Lasker match was a disaster for Marshall, who failed to win a single game. > I know this one has been batted around, but I don't like it. I can't quite explain why, but let me meander through it: I don't like the failure of the word "and" to connect 2 similar thoughts. The first clause makes a statement that is a fairly common characteristic of chess players, and describes a generally true statement about Marshall's career. The second clause describes a "disaster", a particularly extreme example of the tournament vs. match play issue mentioned in the first sentence. Therefore, I think the sentence needs more of a connection than the simple "and". Here's a first try with 3 missing words, and even at that I'm not totally thrilled with it: Marshall was usually more successful in tournaments than match play, and the Lasker match was a(n) (1)______ (2)_________ (3)________ of that. It was a disaster for Marshall, who failed to win a single game. Mix and match ideas:
1. especially particularly typically
2. glaring frustrating galling irritating vexing
3. example demonstration display |
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| Sep-08-13 | | crawfb5: <OCF> It is not uncommon to refer to a 15 year old as a "young man," especially when being generous. Also, standards change as to when one is a "man." However, the text works as well or better to say <He returned to New York City at the age of 15...> and not search for a replacement term, so I say we do that. "Disaster" was one of the few holdovers from the original introduction. It seems as good a term as any. BTW, at one point the <Eagle> (probably Helms) made the same point about Marshall's tournament versus match performance. I don't recall if it was prior to the 1907 match or during one of the earlier rounds of failed negotiations. It doesn't seem important enough to chase down again, however. |
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Sep-08-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <at the age of 15> works. I don't have a problem with the word "disaster". It's the lack of symmetry on the two sides of "and". |
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Sep-08-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Colleagues>
I think this is a bit richer as already written here, because it emphasizes a key point about Marshall's personality: <He returned to New York City as a young man of 15 and was described as being “...of considerable promise, whose reputation has preceded his arrival here.”> As is, the construction emphasizes <Marshall's> precocity and independent spirit. We'd lose that by cutting the "young man". |
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| Sep-08-13 | | Boomie: Game Collection: WCC Kramnik-Topalov FIDE Championship 2006 "The contest began with Kramnik winning both of the first two games" "Both is redundant - "winning the first two games"
"After two more drawn games, on a rest day, Topalov's manager Silvio Danailov, issued a press release which threatened to abort the match" The use of "more" is wrong as there haven't been any draws yet. The reference to a rest day adds nothing. The last comma is unnecessary. "After two drawn games, Topalov's manager Silvio Danailov issued a press release which threatened to abort the match." "Unlike Mr. Kramnik, the World Champion Veselin Topalov..." I know this is a quote of sorts but where do they get off call Top O' Love the WC? Jess sayin'. I second the WCC on the use of "Toiletgate". Not only is it vulgar, it is one of those exaggerated analogies that infests language intended to stir up emotions. |
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Sep-08-13
 | | OhioChessFan: I agree with <Boomie> per the overly long last paragraph in Lasker-Marshall 1907 |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Boomie>
Game Collection: WCC Kramnik-Topalov FIDE Championship 2006 <"The contest began with Kramnik winning both of the first two games""Both is redundant - "winning the first two games"
"After two more drawn games, on a rest day, Topalov's manager Silvio Danailov, issued a press release which threatened to abort the match" The use of "more" is wrong as there haven't been any draws yet. The reference to a rest day adds nothing. The last comma is unnecessary. "After two drawn games, Topalov's manager Silvio Danailov issued a press release which threatened to abort the match." "Unlike Mr. Kramnik, the World Champion Veselin Topalov..." I know this is a quote of sorts but where do they get off call Top O' Love the WC? Jess sayin'. I second the WCC on the use of "Toiletgate". Not only is it vulgar, it is one of those exaggerated analogies that infests language intended to stir up emotions.> <Tim>- about your edit: Much like our webmaster's cabin, LOGGED.
heh |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Marshall 1907 <OhioChessFan: I agree with <Boomie> per the overly long last paragraph in Lasker-Marshall 1907> Noted and logged sirs.
We're going to put some new information in that intro today, so I'm sure whilst doing that, we can also reorganize the paragraphs more equitably. SIZE WIZE! |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: When we have the same reference in succession, I think we should use the old "ibid" ploy eh? <3Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 8/4 1903, page 15. 4Ibid, page 15.>
is better than
<3Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 8/4 1903, page 15. 4Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 8/4 1903, page 15.> |
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| Sep-09-13 | | Boomie: I bid ibid also. |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Tim>
ibid
not
Ibid
right? I changed it to <ibid>. |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
With regard to notes 4 and 6 from Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 draft: Is this <4Neue Wiener Schachzeitung, 1934, page 96> the same issue as this?
<6Neue Wiener Schachzeitung, April 1934, page 97.> Should I also put "April" in note 4? Or is it a different month, or is the month unknown? |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Tim, Ohio>
I have added the new material to <crawfb5's> Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Marshall 1907 draft, and I think the paragraphs look pretty symmetrical now. The draft is at the top of the mirror collection. If anyone notices any other mistakes in it, especially typos, please let me know. |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Steamed Clams>
We currently have two draft edits just about ready to submit to Daniel: Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Marshall 1907 Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 Both are just under 500 words in length.
I have just been checking a few of the existing WCC intros, and this one here comes in at 570 words: Kramnik-Topalov World Championship Match (2006) I think we should use 500 words as a "ballpark goal" for length, and I think we should make all of the intros around this length, the availability of relevant information permitting. I think we should regard each of these events as "important" as any other, at least for our purposes as historians. Therefore, I think they should all be approximately the same length. Around 500 words, though some might come in a bit shorter and some (maybe <1948 Tournament>?) a bit longer. I'd like to close by emphasizing that any of us is super welcome to write a draft(s) eh? If you are particularly interested in an event, and you'd like to write the draft, just say so and then go ahead and do it. |
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Sep-09-13
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: <The match was held from April 1 to June 14 1937 in Baden-Baden (games 1-3), Villingen (games 4-5), Freiburg (games 6-8), Pforzheim (games 9-10), Stuttgart (games 11-12), Munich (games 13-15), in Bayreuth (game 16), in Bad Kissingen (games 17-18), In Nuremberg (games 19-20), in Karlsruhe (game 21), in Mannheim (games 22-24), and Berlin (games 25-26).6> Suddenly starting to preface every city with "in" in the middle of the list seems weird, never mind the strange capitalization of "In" in "In Nuremberg". |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Switch> well spotted, I'm on it now. |
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| Sep-09-13 | | Karpova: <Jess>
Good find! Scrap page 96, as the report on the 1934 match is on pages 97-98 of the 1934 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung' (the first pages of the <April> issue). So both notes can be put together and become one note for <Page 97 of the 1934 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung'>. I never gave the month, but if you want, I can provide it in the future - though in case of the 'Wiener Schachzeitung', the page numbers are continuous so you do not need to know the month to find the information. |
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| Sep-09-13 | | Karpova: On a general note, I think it would be good if magazine and book titles were italicized. Furthermore, is there any additional way of changing the font to maybe indicate direct quotations and thereby emphasize them more stongly than simply via ""? Admin manual merely discusses italicizing. E. g. Petrosian-Spassky World Championship Rematch (1969) |
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Sep-09-13
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> excellent thank you! So I can take out the month and put in page 97 for both, right? |
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| Sep-09-13 | | Karpova: Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Marshall 1907 Footnotes:
I would more clearly distinguish them from the text, in brackets (1) and either italicized [[(1)]] or italicized and smaller font [(1)] (preferrred). Sources: Space between the number and the magazine
If you want he month, then <5Wiener Schachzeitung, 1904, page 364.> was the December issue. <Washington, DC (Game 9), Baltimore (Game 10), and Memphis (Games 12-14).> No comma before <and> In general, no capitalization of terms like <Champion>, <World Champion> or, if referring to specific ones, <Match> and <Tournament>? Even more nitpicking: No country abbreviations for cities? E. g. there are communities in France called Montreal. Nardus has his own player page: Leo Nardus |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 23 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
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