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Oct-03-24
 | | beatgiant: <Abdooss01> Here's a good quality source: https://en.chessbase.com/post/topal... (Chessbase, Sept. 17, 2006 "Topalov and Kramnik Arrive in Elitsa"). Kramnik's seconds are listed as Illescas, Motylev, and Rublevsky, and Topalov's as Cheparinov, Onischuk, and Vallejo Pons. |
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Oct-03-24 | | Petrosianic: <nok>: <But his spending time away from the board naturally raised the question.> Not that naturally. It was well known that Kramnik had ankylosing spondylitis, a rare and painful form of arthritis that made it uncomfortable to stay at the board. It's also well known that you can't use computer assistance without a computer. Team Topalov cited the existence of electrical wiring in the walls as evidence that Kramnik was cheating (!), which proved it wasn't a genuine claim, just an attempt to upset the opponent. Had they really believed what they were saying, they'd have complained quietly, not put the guy they "suspected" on notice that he was being watched. That's why Topalov ended up being the one who was censured by the Ethics Committee. |
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Oct-04-24 | | Damenlaeuferbauer: Just to think, that the great Vladimir Kramnik, a very polite and generous gentleman, besides Anatoly Karpov the only person, who beat Garry Kasparov in a match, and the best positional player of his generation, was cheating, is ridiculous. Even Veselin Topalov and Silvio Danailov didn't believe this. Because of Kramnik's illness and therefore weaker play in 2004 and 2005, Topalov was the (clear) favourite in this match, but Kramnik led with 3-1 after four games. So Danailov and Topalov want to upset Kramnik with their accusations, aiming, that he will lose his psychological/mental balance. |
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Oct-04-24
 | | saffuna: <Just to think, that the great Vladimir Kramnik, a very polite and generous gentleman, besides Anatoly Karpov the only person, who beat Garry Kasparov in a match...> When did Karpov defeat Kasparov in a match? |
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Oct-04-24
 | | perfidious: Duh, 1985?
Hahahahaha!! |
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Oct-04-24 | | Petrosianic: <saffuna>: <When did Karpov defeat Kasparov in a match?> Karpov won a Rapids match against Kasparov in 2002. And of course he de facto won the 1984/5 match. |
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Oct-05-24
 | | saffuna: <And of course he de facto won the 1984/5 match.> No, he didn't. He was leading when it was suspended. |
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Oct-05-24 | | nok: <Just to think, that the great Vladimir Kramnik, a very polite and generous gentleman...> That's going a bit far. |
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Oct-05-24 | | Petrosianic: <saffuna>: <No, he didn't. He was leading when it was suspended.> He walked out of a title match with the title and a majority of the points. That's certainly not a defeat. Maybe we're unclear on what de facto means? |
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Oct-05-24
 | | saffuna: <He walked out of a title match with the title and a majority of the points.> I didn't say it was a defeat. But no way in the world can you say Karpov defeated Kasparov in the 48-game match. |
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Oct-05-24
 | | perfidious: That most fair-minded of men Campomanes interceded to assist Karpov in his darkest hour so as to avoid possible humiliation is clear, and was certainly the decision rendered de facto. |
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Oct-05-24 | | Petrosianic: <perfidious: That most fair-minded of men Campomanes interceded to assist Karpov in his darkest hour so as to avoid possible humiliation is clear, and was certainly the decision rendered de facto.> I'm sure that was his intention, but it was Kasparov he did the favor for. Had Karpov collapsed entirely, and lost Games 49, 50 and 51, (or worse yet, withdrawn from the match with a 2 point lead) nobody would think Kasparov had proved himself. They'd think Karpov was the better player, but Kasparov outsat him. |
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Oct-05-24 | | Petrosianic: <saffuna>: <I didn't say it was a defeat. But no way in the world can you say Karpov defeated Kasparov in the 48-game match.> You might want to complain to chessgames, because their own description of the match calls Karpov "the de facto winner". Karpov - Kasparov World Championship Match (1984/85) I explained my reasoning, and presumably theirs: scored the most points, and walked out with the big prize. |
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Oct-06-24
 | | saffuna: <I explained my reasoning, and presumably theirs: scored the most points, and walked out with the big prize.> Ridiculous. Like giving the Masters championship to the player leading after the 17th hole. |
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Oct-06-24 | | Petrosianic: <saffuna>: <Ridiculous. Like giving the Masters championship to the player leading after the 17th hole.> Or like naming a winner after 6 innings because the game is rained out? de facto: "Existing in actuality, especially when contrary to or not established by law." You can complain to chessgames if you like, maybe they'll change it. |
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Oct-06-24
 | | saffuna: <Or like naming a winner after 6 innings because the game is rained out?> Sorry, that doesn't work. The match was called off because the players (really "the player") were exhausted, as I remember. And as we know, it wasn't as if one player had won some and the other had won some and it was 5-3. Karpov won the first five decisive games, then Kasparov won the next three, including the final two games played. I will say this. Kasparov would have every reason to be upset if Karpov were to claim he defeated him in that match. To my knowledge he never has. |
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Oct-06-24
 | | saffuna: <You can complain to chessgames if you like, maybe they'll change it.> I have issues with a number of the player bios and some in the match/tournament descriptions. I've given up saying anything, as it never does any good. |
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Oct-06-24
 | | perfidious: <saffuna>, while an admin, I lack the power to edit this type of match/tournament page. If there are other concerns, you are welcome to drop a note on my page and I will do what I can. |
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Oct-06-24 | | nok: I thought it was now common knowledge that plans to stop the 84-85 match began in January 1985, before the last games, which debunks Kasparov's simplistic narrative of a conspiracy against him. It can always be discussed on the relevant page. |
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Oct-06-24
 | | saffuna: <If there are other concerns, you are welcome to drop a note on my page and I will do what I can.> My biggest complaint has long been the embarrassing Wesley So bio. But that will never be changed, never made historically accurate. |
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Oct-06-24
 | | perfidious: Someone else took possession of the So page and, so far as I am aware, has sole editing privileges. |
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Oct-06-24 | | fabelhaft: Yes, the So page and some others are even more silly than the ”Karpov de facto won the match” stuff. So is for example said to have finished shared third in Isle of Man 2016, which he didn’t. The system used to get these results is that if So scored, say, 5 points, three players scored 6 points and two scored 7, So finished third because there only existed two higher scores. Now he did finish 6th in that scenario, but third looks better. The World Championship section is funny. Just try to make sense of the rematches and return matches. Alekhine vs Bogo II and Steinitz vs Chigorin II etc are called rematches just like Euwe vs Alekhine II and Kasparov vs Karpov 1986. Then there are also return matches, but the term is not used for the two latest matches. However, it is used for Botvinnik vs Smyslov 1957, while what they played in 1958 is called rematch. One can also wonder why Kasparov vs Kramnik and Kramnik vs Leko were for the FIDE title, unlike the FIDE Championships being held at the same time. Or who decided why Zukertort became unofficial World Champion in 1879, when he didn’t even play any chess. History of the World Chess Championship |
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Oct-06-24 | | Petrosianic: <fabelhaft>: <Or who decided why Zukertort became unofficial World Champion in 1879, when he didn’t even play any chess.> That's a head scratcher, but they probably based it on Zukertort winning Paris 1878 (where Steinitz wasn't present), and becoming #1 in the Chessmetrics rankings (although nobody knew it at the time). Unofficial champions should really be champions by acclamation, people who were widely recognized as being the best of their era, even if people might not know precise dates or events that began or ended it. Steinitz didn't hold an official World Championship until 1886 because too many people wouldn't have taken it seriously while Morphy was alive. It's widely agreed that Phiidiro, Deschapelles, and LaBourdonnais were the best of their eras. But it seems silly to Saint-Amant "won" it in 1842 and lost it in 1843. News travelled so slowly in those days that few knew he he even had it until he "lost" it. If you took a poll, probably very few people would consider that Zukertort had ever been world champion at all, either officially or unofficially. The whole point of having Unofficial World Champions is to only pick people that pretty much everyone agrees on. |
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Oct-08-24
 | | perfidious: <saffuna>, I visited the So page for the first time in years just now and am apparently not blocked from editing, but was credited with an edit after making no changes at all. Bizarre. |
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Mar-06-25 | | Petrosianic: <Damenlaeuferbauer>: <Just to think, that the great Vladimir Kramnik, a very polite and generous gentleman, besides Anatoly Karpov the only person, who beat Garry Kasparov in a match, and the best positional player of his generation, was cheating, is ridiculous. Even Veselin Topalov and Silvio Danailov didn't believe this.> I don't know about Danailov, but having read Topalov's Toilet War book, I think he really believed it, despite how ridiculous it was. Anybody really going off to use computer assistance might do it at a couple of key points during the game, not 40 or 50 times. Topalov didn't believe Kramnik had any health issues, saying he'd known him for 20 years, and there hadn't been any (Kramnik was only diagnosed with ankylosing spondilitis in 2005, the year before the match). And, of course, to use computer assistance you have to have a computer. Topalov's entire evidence was that there was electrical wiring in the <ceiling> of Kramnik's restroom (Kramnik didn't have a ladder either, so far as we know). And Topalov is TOTALLY oblivious to the fact that he himself violated the rules horribly by trying to settle his dispute in the court of public opinion. Condemning Topalov for this was the only time in memory that Karpov and Korchnoi agreed on something. The Toilet War book is a mixed bag. Topalov is petty, petulant, and extremely unobjective about anything to do with Kramnik. But in discussing the chess itself, he's actually a pretty good annotator. Here are some of Topalov's comments on Game 3: <AFTER 7...Na5: The positions with the knight on a5 did not much inspire my confidence, but my seconds were adamant that Black is always fine. AFTER 11...Bc5: This was our idea. Now after 12. Nxc6 Qxd3 13. exd3 Nxc6 the weakness of the white d-pawn is compensation for the bishop pair. AFTER 12. Rd1: Here I realized that my opening choice had been wrong, as Black was not able to get a playable position. After [line given] and the ending reminds me of those we get from the classical line in the Nimzo-Indian with 4. Qc2.> This is EXACTLY the kind of stuff I want to hear from an annotator. Not reams of computer analysis that I could generate myself. I want to hear what he was thinking, what he was angling for, why he wanted it, what the ideas were behind it, and why it worked or didn't work, when he realized it, and things like that. If you just read it for the game notes, Toilet War is well worth a read. I'd be interested in seeing other stuff he'd written. |
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