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WCC Editing Project
Member since Jul-19-13 · Last seen Aug-24-24
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   WCC Editing Project has kibitzed 3286 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jun-07-15 Biographer Bistro (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <zanzibar: Since I'm an adviser to editors, rather than an editor, I'm unfamiliar with what exactly editors can do.> I want to bring this post to your attention again: Biographer Bistro (kibitz #10966) It explains what editors can do and what not.
 
   May-31-15 chessgames.com chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <chessgames.com> Maybe you overlooked this post Biographer Bistro (kibitz #11028) , since the Bistro has become rather fast-paced. An answer would be interesting to several people.
 
   May-29-15 WCC Editing Project chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Chessical> Thank you very much for your contribution(s)! We hope that you will support us in the future, also. For sure, you have helped us quite a lot already. The draft in question is already finished and was send away, though. It is still a valuable source and
 
   Apr-01-15 Moscow (1925) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Capablanca> on his experience at <Moscow 1925>: <"Although very philosophical, very observant and completely dispassionate in my judgment about everything concerning chess and its great exponents, I was nonetheless <<<unable to ...
 
   Mar-08-15 Tabanus chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: Ribli - Torre Candidates Quarterfinal (1983) Audiovisual aid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8G...
 
   Mar-08-15 Alekhine - Bogoljubov World Championship Match (1929) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <beatgiant> In case you want to read further on this topic, I have prepared a sourced timeline that summarizes the <Alekhine-Capablanca> rematch negotiations from 26 Feb 1929 - March 1935: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 ARCHIVE
 
   Jan-29-15 suenteus po 147 chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <One Third of the original "Big Three"> I beg your pardon! I'm on vacation in Canada, and I just now saw your post in the WCC forum. By "we" I meant the cg.com biographers, not the WCC project. All of the research compiled for additions to your intro was done by ...
 
   Nov-23-14 R Fuchs vs Tal, 1969 (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <MC Scarlett> If so, very very quietly...
 
   Nov-19-14 Alexander Alekhine (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for the correction! That sum makes more sense now in conjunction with the report on the organizers' losses. Good heavens- they can't have made much on ticket sales.
 
   Nov-17-14 E Walther vs Tal, 1966
 
WCC Editing Project: Queen trap Trick or Treat- this game was played on Halloween, 1966.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

WCC Editing Project

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 39 OF 127 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Game Collection: WCC: Anand-Topalov FIDE Championship 2010

<After defeating Gata Kamsky in the eight-game challenger match, Bulgarian grandmaster Veselin Topalov once again found himself preparing for a World Championship title match.>

I don't like this sentence for a number of reasons. In general, I dislike clauses preceding the initial mention of the subject. I think this should be reworked so that the first words of the sentence are "Bulgarian grandmaster (aren't we yet consistent on lower/upper case for Grandmaster?) Veselin Topalov......" "found himself preparing" is a pretty weak clause. Everything from "once" to the end of the sentence is pretty fluffy and probably not worth the increased word count. It just doesn't impart any information.

My first effort: Bulgarian Grandmaster Veselin Topalov defeated Gata Kamsky in an (not sure why I prefer "an" to "the" but open to disagreement) eight game challenger match to earn the right to contest another World Championship title match."

<The title match was mostly following the format of Anand-Kramnik 2008 and Kramnik-Topalov 2006 in that 12 games would be played, with a series of successively faster tiebreak rounds if needed. >

"...was mostly following" is a bit awkward. How about simply "mostly followed"?

< but the ever-aggressive Topalov seemed to have a psychological edge even while trailing. >

I think this claim needs a contemperaneous source or else it should be excised.

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Son, have you ever seen the Ohio River?>

Game Collection: WCC: Anand-Topalov FIDE Championship 2010

<<After defeating Gata Kamsky in the eight-game challenger match, Bulgarian grandmaster Veselin Topalov once again found himself preparing for a World Championship title match.>

I don't like this sentence for a number of reasons. In general, I dislike clauses preceding the initial mention of the subject. I think this should be reworked so that the first words of the sentence are "Bulgarian grandmaster (aren't we yet consistent on lower/upper case for Grandmaster?) Veselin Topalov......" "found himself preparing" is a pretty weak clause. Everything from "once" to the end of the sentence is pretty fluffy and probably not worth the increased word count. It just doesn't impart any information.

My first effort: Bulgarian Grandmaster Veselin Topalov defeated Gata Kamsky in an (not sure why I prefer "an" to "the" but open to disagreement) eight game challenger match to earn the right to contest another World Championship title match.">

"the" isn't correct, because it's the first mention of the match. Your sentence is clearly better so I'm putting it in.

We decided to go with no capitals for anything after we saw what they looked like on the html page. Not so good.

Shouldn't it be "challenge match" or "challenger's match"?

###################

<<The title match was mostly following the format of Anand-Kramnik 2008 and Kramnik-Topalov 2006 in that 12 games would be played, with a series of successively faster tiebreak rounds if needed. >

"...was mostly following" is a bit awkward. How about simply "mostly followed"?>

It is awkward. I'm killing it and putting your suggestion in.

#####################

<< but the ever-aggressive Topalov seemed to have a psychological edge even while trailing. >

I think this claim needs a contemporaneous source or else it should be excised.>

Agree, so I've logged your suggestion until we get to it.

Sep-29-13  Karpova: <Jess>

Great draft for Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Euwe 1935 !

<and Alekhine also indicated he might not take his new opponent too seriously.>

Source?

<Some Dutch press reported that his subsequent behavior at the board was drunken and disruptive, a charge later denied by Alekhine, Euwe, Maróczy, Landau, Kmoch, and FIDE president Alexander Rueb.>

Source?

<a performance Emanuel Lasker called "a brilliant achievement... It is the more to be acclaimed, as he was obviously getting through a mental/psychological crisis.">

Dr. Lasker uses the adjective <seelische> and there is no direct translation possible. The expression <Seele> (subject) can be directly translated to <Soul>. I put in <mental> and <psychological> to indicate that it is not so clear. For sure, you can leave it this way but maybe you find one word that fits best, with regards to <Seele = Soul>. Perhaps <psychological> as it contains <psychḗ>, although this has no christian connotation (although Dr. Lasker was jewish, he was probably used to the common usage of the expression).

<Euwe established a winning position, and after offering Alekhine a draw 3 times, he finally accepted. Max Euwe had become the 5th world chess champion.>

Only 2 draw offers from Euwe: 1st offer after 25.Rf2 and after his 34th move. Euwe made his 40th move and prepared the sealing of his next move and then Alekhine asked him if he would seal his next move. Euwe replied that they'd always done it like this and Alekhine was now ready to accept the draw offer. It's not said that Euwe made a new one - Alekhine was rather willing now to accept the one from move 34 or in a way, made a new one. I guess to them it didn't matter much any longer. Perhaps: <Euwe established a winning position, but Alekhine declined 2 draw offers. After move 40, he recognized the inevitable and they agreed to a draw. Max Euwe had become the 5th world chess champion.>

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for notes!

<<and Alekhine also indicated he might not take his new opponent too seriously.>

Source?>

The source is me, based on the following account in the intro. I agree with Kmoch that asking Euwe to play on a cruise ship for the world championship "if need be" was improper and condescending to Euwe, as if he were not someone to be taken seriously. Kmoch's opinion is sourced to Munninghoff in note 5.

#########################

<Source?

<Some Dutch press reported that his subsequent behavior at the board was drunken and disruptive, a charge later denied by Alekhine, Euwe, Maróczy, Landau, Kmoch, and FIDE president Alexander Rueb.>>

Source is Alekhine and the writer of the cited article.

Note 11: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...

Every name listed in the article as denying the claim Alekhine was drunk and disruptive at the board is also listed in the article. Rueb speaks for himself in the article. I also have Euwe and Kmoch speaking for themselves in two other distinct sources, as opposed to just being listed by Alekhine (although the corroboration proves that Alekhine was right they denied the claim).

This is what I was talking about in terms of having one note for three different sources, instead of putting three different notes in the intro- as in <11,12,13> and so on.

Alekhine: <"I have been the butt of a campaign of calumniation and misrepresentation organized by a part of the Dutch Press.">

I have a Euwe interview in which he castigates the press for saying Alekhine lost game 21 because he was drunk, but Euwe doesn't mention any specific reporters or newspapers.

What we really want is an actual Dutch chess writer, or any chess writer, from a contemporaneous newspaper complaining about Alekhine being drunk and disruptive at the game. I wonder if <dakgootje> could find something in the "kranten site" newspapers? Everyone seems to refer to these "bad reports about Alekhine's behavior" at this game but where did all the "bad reports" go?

##################

On <Dr. Lasker> translation:

"crisis of the soul" is a well known English idiom, and also a recognized trope in German romanticism, not to mention Russian literature as well.

This phrase fits Alekhine in particular, I think.

I like "crisis of the soul" much better than "mental/psychological crisis."

It's also a more literal translation which is good in this case, I'm pretty sure. I will change it now.

##################

<Euwe established a winning position, but Alekhine declined 2 draw offers. After move 40, he recognized the inevitable and they agreed to a draw. Max Euwe had become the 5th world chess champion.>

Thank you for correction, and for the great sentence replacement too. I'm putting it in now.

##################

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: <WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for notes!

<<and Alekhine also indicated he might not take his new opponent too seriously.>

Source?>

The source is me, based on the following account in the intro. I agree with Kmoch that asking Euwe to play on a cruise ship for the world championship "if need be" was improper and condescending to Euwe, as if he were not someone to be taken seriously. Kmoch's opinion is sourced to Munninghoff in note 5.>

If the source is Kmoch, cite Kmoch. If Kmoch (or other reliable contemporary sources) don't directly support that claim then it doesn't belong.

<Here is our <<<watchword>>>: all facts in the intros must be sourced to reliable primary material>

We don't make sources. We aren't a reliable source for our own articles, and if we are to be a reliable source for future writers we must at all costs avoid shoddy scholarahip. We must not spice things up by adding poorly sourced claims or shaky interpretations. Remember your post at Biographer Bistro? It must be possible for a reader to look at any claim in any of our articles, find the source cited for it and conclude we didn't make up that claim.

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Switch>, <Karpova>

Thank you both, it's a fair cop. I have to back off my own feeling about Alekhine's state of mind, because it's a guess, and indeed a shaky interpretation.

I will fix it now.

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Petrosian 1963

<leaving Petrosian to hold the title unmolested for a full 3-year cycle.>

"unmolested" is a bit of a vulgar word, isn't it? How about "unchallenged"?

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

I also changed the intro to read:

Alekhine became angry that the car sent to pick him up was delayed by traffic, and he began drinking hours before the game.<12> The next day "the press became harsh towards Alekhine, claiming that he had come to the game totally intoxicated... to upset his opponent with unsportive behavior."<12> Alekhine, Euwe, Kmoch, and FIDE president Alexander Rueb later denied this claim.<11,12,13>.

######################

Source <11> reports direct speech from Alekhine and Rueb, source <12> is Kmoch's report on Ermelo, and source <13> reports direct speech from Euwe.

We still need to look for an actual instance of a contemporaneous report accusing Alekhine of being drunk, or deliberately trying to upset Euwe at the board.

I'll send out another SOS to our Dutch friends, though <thomastonk> may already be tired of seeing me in his forum so often.

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>

LOL! Good Heavens yes that word just leaps out at you doesn't it?

Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Petrosian 1963

<"unchallenged"> it is.

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Bloody money, bane of the ages. Would it interrupt the various narratives to tell how much say, 500 dollars in 1907, would be in 2013 dollars?
Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> you said it.

Just yesterday I was trying to find the exchange rate for "Dutch guilders" and "US Dollars" in 1935.

I could find no "historical currency calculator" for that date online.

<thomastonk> had to find the actual exchange rate in question by looking in newspapers from 1935.

That said, I'm not sure how crucial it is to find and quote current currency values, as opposed to historical values.

It would be useful information, but soon out of date, no?

I mean it could conceivably go really out of date in a few short years, depending on world financial events.

Sep-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Steamed Colleagues>

I have sent out SOS calls to our Dutch friends about the notorious "The Press..." issue.

Sep-30-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: When one wakes up and thinks, "Aha, <that> might work", in regards to a footnote on various WCC pages, one probably needs to take a step or two hundred back. In any event, I will humbly suggest a CPI index chart or something like this page:

http://www.measuringworth.com/uscom...

to be footnoted after the mentions of the money at stake in the various matches/tournaments.

Sep-30-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> that is a wonderful website- very scholarly and intriguing.

http://www.measuringworth.com/uscom...

I plugged in the $6,700 US from 1935, the purse in Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Euwe 1935, and look what it came up with:

http://www.measuringworth.com/uscom...

<In 2012, the relative worth of $6,700.00 from 1935 is:

$112,000.00 using the Consumer Price Index

$88,900.00 using the GDP deflator

$245,000.00 using the value of consumer bundle

$272,000.00 using the unskilled
wage

$336,000.00 using the Production Worker Compensation

$594,000.00 using the nominal GDP per capita

$1,460,000.00 using the relative share of GDP>

I believe "fascinating" is an appropriate word to describe this information.

Even the lowest figure on here indicates it was a substantial purse eh?

Your idea is certainly worth considering, and absolutely worth remembering, so I logged it at the top of this collection:

Game Collection: WCC: OVERALL INTRODUCTION

Oct-01-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <OhioChessFan>

Game Collection: WCC: FIDE WCC Tournament 1948

<When war broke out in 1939, Mikhail Botvinnik had been negotiating a title match with Alexander Alekhine to be played in Moscow. In early 1946, Botvinnik renewed his challenge. Negotiations were carried out between Moscow and the British Chess Federation, <<<since the Alekhine-Botvinnik title match would now take place in London.>>> On 22 March 1946 the BCF informed Alekhine that match conditions had been agreed to. Alekhine received the telegram, but died a day later.>

Or

<since the Alekhine-Botvinnik title match was now slated for London>

Or your suggestion?

Oct-01-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: I'll have to go look at my suggestion. I don't care for either of those, as "since" implies a linear/causal source.
Oct-01-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> I think I may have deleted your suggestion of some weeks ago- I don't remember, but if I did please accept my apology.

Agree that <since> is a problem.

Any new suggestions from you would be a great help. This is the opening of the article so it has to be as close to perfect as we can make it.

Oct-01-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: This is going to need some clarification. Isn't it unique that the local federation has a spot at the negotiating table just because it is the host locale? Surely there is some historical refernce as to why the Brits had any say at all, since it seems to me the 2 combatants would normally carry out the negotiations.
Oct-01-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Was the British Federation putting up stakes, etc? If so, that would explain their involvement, but that needs to be clarified.
Oct-01-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> thanks for the call for clarification-

I think <Botvinnik's> autobiography may shed light on this. Luckily I have that at hand, so I'll take a close look at his account and report back.

Oct-02-13  Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934

It's a bit late but, on p. 299 of the October 1933 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung', it is reported that Bogoljubov challenged Alekhine for the world championship and the latter accepted. Still, he would have to raise $10,000 which will be a hard task, despite of the dollar devaluation.

Oct-02-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> not too late at all.

That's important information and thanks for doing the work to get it and share it. I will find a way to add it to the intro.

Oct-02-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <OhioClarificationFan>

Ok in his autobiography, <Botvinnik> does indeed supply the clarification we're looking for. The choice of London instead of Moscow, and the curious role of the BCF as intermediaries in the negotiations, has to do with the accusation against Alekhine of collaborating with the Nazis.

After the "anti Alekhine" committee got Alekhine's invitation to London A (1946) revoked, the Soviet government was leery of any direct contact with Alekhine.

So Botvinnik suggested the match be played in London, and that negotiations be opened first through the BCF as intermediaries.

Botvinnik: <"The situation was a delicate one. First of all it was out of the question to invite Alekhine to Moscow, as this was linked with the preliminary investigation of <<<the accusations,>>> and secondly it was undesirable to enter into direct negotiations with him. I suggested that the whole match be played in England and at first the negotiations went through an intermediary, Mr Du Mont, editor of the "British Chess Magazine" (from material published in the magazine one could take it that du Mont and Alekhine were corresponding with each other)... the suggestion was accepted and negotiations began.">

Just to clarify a few points- the translation is a little awkward, but becomes clearer when read in the context of Botvinnik's entire discussion of the affair in his autobiography.

In this sentence:

<First of all it was out of the question to invite Alekhine to Moscow, as <<<this>>> was linked with the preliminary investigation of the accusations, and secondly it was undesirable to enter into direct negotiations with him.>

The word "this" refers to the plan to play Alekhine for the title match. Botvinnik means the match would be too directly linked to the accusations (of Alekhine's collaboration) if the match were to take place in Moscow.

In the sentence

<the suggestion was <<<accepted>>> and negotiations began>,

Botvinnik means it was <accepted> by the Soviet government. Despite this, a faction in the Soviet government still tried to prevent the match, and Botvinnik had to spend most of his time arranging political allies to help convince his government to allow the match. Some in the Soviet government feared that they would be accused of dealing with a Nazi collaborator. In particular, they were worried about losing credibility with the French communists, who were among the most vocal detractors of Alekhine.

<Now, March 1946>

Botvinnik: <"A letter arrived from England, from Derbyshire (the organiser of the Nottingham tournament). Now he was president of the <<<British Chess Federation.>>> He told us that in principle the English were prepared to run the match...">

It was a telegram from the same Derbyshire that (according to Francisco Lupi) Alekhine received the day before he died.

Botvinnik: <"The day before (Alekhine's death)... there was a meeting of the executive committee of the British Chess Federation where the question of the match was resolved favourably. Immediately after the meeting Alekhine was sent a telegram with an official <<<proposal>>> to play a world title match with the USSR champion (meaning Botvinnik)." >

-Mikhail Botvinnik
"Achieving the Aim."
Bernard Cafferty, transl.
(Pergamon 1981), pp.95-98

Oct-02-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <OhioClarificationFan>

<Was the British Federation putting up stakes, etc? If so, that would explain their involvement, but that needs to be clarified.>

The Soviet government agreed to put up all of the stakes: a $10,000 US purse for the match.

Botvinnik: <"Derbyshire... told us that in principle the English were prepared to run the match <<<(which was quite understandable as the prize fund was guaranteed by the Soviet Union)>>> and that he proposed starting in August at Nottingham...>

Mikhail Botvinnik
"Achieving the Aim," p.95

Oct-02-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: Correction:

<So Botvinnik suggested the match be played in London, and that negotiations be opened first through the BCF as intermediaries.>

Should be <through Mr. du Mont as an intermediary>.

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