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WCC Editing Project
Member since Jul-19-13 · Last seen Aug-24-24
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   WCC Editing Project has kibitzed 3286 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jun-07-15 Biographer Bistro (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <zanzibar: Since I'm an adviser to editors, rather than an editor, I'm unfamiliar with what exactly editors can do.> I want to bring this post to your attention again: Biographer Bistro (kibitz #10966) It explains what editors can do and what not.
 
   May-31-15 chessgames.com chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <chessgames.com> Maybe you overlooked this post Biographer Bistro (kibitz #11028) , since the Bistro has become rather fast-paced. An answer would be interesting to several people.
 
   May-29-15 WCC Editing Project chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Chessical> Thank you very much for your contribution(s)! We hope that you will support us in the future, also. For sure, you have helped us quite a lot already. The draft in question is already finished and was send away, though. It is still a valuable source and
 
   Apr-01-15 Moscow (1925) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Capablanca> on his experience at <Moscow 1925>: <"Although very philosophical, very observant and completely dispassionate in my judgment about everything concerning chess and its great exponents, I was nonetheless <<<unable to ...
 
   Mar-08-15 Tabanus chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: Ribli - Torre Candidates Quarterfinal (1983) Audiovisual aid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8G...
 
   Mar-08-15 Alekhine - Bogoljubov World Championship Match (1929) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <beatgiant> In case you want to read further on this topic, I have prepared a sourced timeline that summarizes the <Alekhine-Capablanca> rematch negotiations from 26 Feb 1929 - March 1935: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 ARCHIVE
 
   Jan-29-15 suenteus po 147 chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <One Third of the original "Big Three"> I beg your pardon! I'm on vacation in Canada, and I just now saw your post in the WCC forum. By "we" I meant the cg.com biographers, not the WCC project. All of the research compiled for additions to your intro was done by ...
 
   Nov-23-14 R Fuchs vs Tal, 1969 (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <MC Scarlett> If so, very very quietly...
 
   Nov-19-14 Alexander Alekhine (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for the correction! That sum makes more sense now in conjunction with the report on the organizers' losses. Good heavens- they can't have made much on ticket sales.
 
   Nov-17-14 E Walther vs Tal, 1966
 
WCC Editing Project: Queen trap Trick or Treat- this game was played on Halloween, 1966.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

WCC Editing Project

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 68 OF 127 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-02-14  Karpova: What about this:

<After the war, Capablanca considered himself, Lasker and Rubinstein to be the strongest players.25 Lasker began negotiations with Capablanca in January 1920,28 although the world champion still had a contract with Rubinstein.27 Capablanca published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 Rubinstein was being left out. He believed that the world championship should be administered by an official body, and suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

Feb-02-14  Karpova: Another thing to add is, that we should avoid judging it from the result - as we know it, but they didn't and couldn't.

What basically happened was, that Capablanca mounted a campaign - he also needed to raise the money first. That's why he had to win over the public with 'My Chess Career', for example. The same goes for Akiva.

But Capablanca was able to find the sponsors he needed to fund a match. Akiva didn't - unlike the Cuban, Rubinstein was based in Europe. The fact that he still had ambitions and tried to make it happen does not appear unreasonable to me.

Feb-02-14  Karpova: Perhaps another thought to clarify it and make the motivation appear less strange:

It's only natural that Rubinstein would try to arrange another match against Lasker. Even if it was extremely hard, if not impossible - should he have just shrugged it off, not caring about the world championship any longer?

But now he is being ignored, as Capablanca's campaign is running and the match between Lasker and him is the main topic discussed by the chess public. This situation certainly made Rubinstein's task finally impossible. If there were potential sponsors in Europe at all, who would promise funding of a match, when another potential match was the only headline in the chess world? That he can't have been happy about it should be clear. He was Lasker's last challenger, now his greatest rival together with Capablanca (who else? Schlechter had died at the end of 1918, Alekhine not yet) - why shouldn't he at least try to achieve a shot at the title?

Feb-02-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <Another thing to add is, that we should avoid judging it from the result - as we know it, but they didn't and couldn't.>

Maybe the sentence about Rubinstein and money should go after the sentence about Capa offering a (tentative) rematch.

Feb-03-14  Karpova: <Maybe the sentence about Rubinstein and money should go after the sentence about Capa offering a (tentative) rematch.>

This may create a false impression. Meant is that both, Capablanca and Rubinstein, tried to obtain a title match. As only Cuba could host such an event, Capablanca prevailed. The proposed change could make it look as if we were talking about Rubinstein's challenge to Capablanca, but this occurred after Capablanca won the title and therefore is not part of this Intro.

Feb-03-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: How could Rubinstein, at the time of the negotiations between Lasker and Capa, feel left out when he didn't have the money at that time anyway? If that time frame is not correct, then the sentence is misleading. If that time frame is correct, we are presenting Rubinstein as a simpleton.
Feb-03-14  Karpova: I don't see how Rubinstein is presented as a simpleton here. It is perhaps worth keeping in mind that Capablanca didn't have the money either. He found sponsors. The fact that a Capablanca-Lasker match was the talk of the town turned the already near impossible task of finding sponsors for Rubinstein into an impossible one.

The talk about a chessplayer "having the money" is merely a metaphor. It's not that Capablanca was running around with a suitcase full of dollars, while Rubinstein didn't. They didn't have money, they found sponsors. Rubinstein had to find them, Capablanca had to, later Alekhine had to, etc..

Does it make a world class chessplayer appear to be a simpleton if he tries to arrange a match for the world championship? Does it make him appear to be a simpleton when he suggests an official body (e. g. like what would later become Fide) to administer such things? Does it make him appear to be a simpleton that he suggests a triangular tournament between Lasker, Capablanca and himself as a compromise?

Feb-03-14  Karpova: I changed my suggestion from yesterday a bit:

<After the war, Lasker, Rubinstein and Capablanca were considered to be the strongest players.25 Capablanca began negotiations for a title match in January 1920,28 although Lasker still had a contract with Rubinstein.27 Capablanca published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 As he was being left out, Rubinstein proposed an official body to administer the world championship. Furthermore, he suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. In contrast to Cuba, necessary funding for a title match could not be obtained in post-war Europe.27 So only Capablanca was successful in arranging a title match. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

Feb-03-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<Karpova, Colleagues>

This is what I think. This part of the passage was better two edits ago. Here is the version two edits ago:

<Yet Rubinstein still had a contract and felt left out. He suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

And here is the latest version of this part of the passage:

<As he was being left out, Rubinstein proposed an official body to administer the world championship. Furthermore, he suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. In contrast to Cuba, necessary funding for a title match could not be obtained in post-war Europe.27 So only Capablanca was successful in arranging a title match. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

The first version I understood perfectly well. I actually have the source material noted here, and I have checked it, but I didn't need to in order to understand what the passage meant.

<"So only Capablanca was successful in arranging a title match."> This sentence is unnecessary. We already know this information just from the title of the match. By this, do you mean that "...so this is why Rubinstein was unsuccessful in arranging a title match"? If so, you already supplied this information in the "two versions ago text" I posted above, more economically and in better style too.

I don't need to be told that it was difficult to arrange funding in post-war Europe. We can assume a certain shared level of basic historical knowledge in the readership. Finally, "As he was being left out" and "Furthermore" makes the style less lean that it was before- the passage seems to become more verbose with each edit, without enough justification, in my view.

Feb-03-14  Karpova: <Jess>

Thanks! The version you liked best, does it also make Rubinstein's viewpoint understandable or does it make him look like a simpleton?

Feb-03-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

This is just my opinion, but yes it makes <Rubinstein's> viewpoint totally understandable. It wasn't his fault that post-war Europe was in a state of almost total economic collapse.

No, I don't think what you wrote in that "two versions ago" text makes him look like a simpleton.

Going away a bit in focus from what you wrote in your intro, I don't think <Akiva> was as clever as people like <Janowski> in terms of raising funds. But the fact that he didn't have that kind of "advertising himself" mentality actually emphasizes how much he wanted his rightful shot at the title. He made extraordinary efforts to get that shot. I think he was "cheated by history," in a way. I wouldn't blame <Lasker> or <Capablanca>, but the entire historical circumstances combined seems to have "conspired" against <Rubinstein>.

Feb-03-14  Karpova: <Jess>

I agree with you, although I'm not sure about Janowski. If it was really so much cleverness on his part, or not mostly driven by Nardus.

So this is still the current version of that passage:

<After the war, Capablanca considered himself, Lasker and Rubinstein to be the strongest players.25 Capablanca began negotiations with Lasker in January 1920,28 and published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 Yet Rubinstein still had a contract and felt left out. He suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

Feb-03-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921

This is what's in the Mirror right now:

<After the war, Capablanca considered himself, Lasker and Rubinstein to be the strongest players.25 Capablanca published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 Yet Rubinstein still had a contract and felt left out. He even suggested a triangular tournament to determine the champion.27 Capablanca declared that he would accept a challenge from him, should he win the title.25 But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in Europe.27>

########################

So is this here what you want me to put in the Mirror? Remember we can always change it still as you wish, right up to the deadline which is a long way away.

<After the war, Capablanca considered himself, Lasker and Rubinstein to be the strongest players.25 Capablanca began negotiations with Lasker in January 1920,28 and published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 Yet Rubinstein still had a contract and felt left out. He suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

Feb-03-14  Karpova: <Jess>

I think it's not necessary yet, let's better wit as in case that this is put in, the footnotes section has to be changed.

Feb-03-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

No worries!

Feb-06-14  twinlark: <Jess>, <Karpova>

I've spent a little bit of time footnoting this bio of the late great Gyula Sax.

That spacing problem we were discussing on my forum shows up in spades on this bio, as even removing large tracts of text does not uncover the last 10 or 12 footnotes. Seems urls use up a few extra bytes, something I need to ask admin about.

Anyway, take a squiz and let me know whether you think I've over done the bio.

My rationale for this particular bio was to address the criticisms about sourcing, so I've gone overboard a bit with these, but more importantly to provide a decent coverage and tribute to a great player whose career was not even remotely researched and covered in any of the eulogies or obituaries.

I figure a player's life and career is worth more than a mention of a few tournaments, especially someone who was such a major figure in his day. Gashimov's bio only needed a bit of touching up after he passed.

Feb-06-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Steamed, albeit resting, Colleagues>

Have we finished inspecting Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921?

I don't see any reason to waste time needlessly on these promotions. <Daniel> has replied to my latest "update" email on our work, and he has expressed agreement with the "one week" limit per inspection schedule.

He also expressed understanding about the current <Feb 24> deadline for this promotion, extended due to my vacation to Canada.

However, I'll be in Canada about 50 hours from now, and after a day or so to get my "sea legs" I've plenty of free time to devote to the current draft under inspection. So there's no need to hold up this draft so long because of my vacation. I'll have more time, not less time, to work on it because I don't have to go to work! (I hadn't thought of this clearly before)

I see no reason not to promote the draft much earlier than <Feb 24>, particularly if nobody has worked on the draft for the last 3 days.

Unless I hear a compelling argument against it, I'm certainly not going to wait until Feb 24 to promote this one draft. I wouldn't say that if I didn't think it's already in fine shape, and in my opinion it's ready to go right now. When I get to Canada I'd like to check the notes over once more, since I have the same book as <Karpova> and I actually have access to all of the notes except the WSZ one. But after that, as I said I don't see any problems in the draft.

But that's just ONE WOMAN'S OPINION, and you now how well *that* can go over...

Feb-06-14  twinlark: Thanks <Jess> and <Karpova> for your comments.

I think I'll wait for Daniel's response before I create a new page to store source links (I have to shut my mid up as it's coming up with names like Saxy Sources, stop it! stop it!!).

It's a neat work around, but I would like all the info on one page in the bio.

The bio reads a bit like a laundry list in the tournament achievements, but I figure the preliminary summary tells most people what they want to know.

omg that bio took a long time.

I'm still torn between providing comprehensive bios and shorter ones that cleverly summarise and encapsulate a player's career.

Sax isn't a problem as he's no longer an active player and doesn't have a large fan base to complain about such things. But I wouldn't use the Sax bio technique on everyone.

Just thinking aloud...

Feb-06-14  twinlark: BTW have I mentioned lately that the work you guys are doing is awesome?

In case I haven't, AWESOME!

Feb-06-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Big Bio>

I see no reason for you to necessarily feel torn between comprehensive bios and shorter ones, any more than you should feel torn between the <Great Red Kangaroo> and the <Red Necked Wallaby>.

I have absolute confidence in your ability to judge when one end of the scale seems more appropriate than the other, on a case by case basis.

Feb-06-14  Boomie: <WCC: I don't see any reason to waste time needlessly on these promotions.>

<Karpova> has the power. If she says it's ready, then go for it. I can't find anything worth chewing over.

Feb-06-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Kevin Tighe>

Too right! We'll have to wait for <Karpova> to pull the trigger on the "final edit" question that was being wrangled over as well.

Feb-06-14  Boomie: <WCC>

On a rare "normal" note, have a nice vacation in sun drenched Canada.

Feb-07-14  Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921

This was the latest version

<After the war, Capablanca considered himself, Lasker and Rubinstein to be the strongest players.25 Capablanca began negotiations with Lasker in January 1920,28 and published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 Yet Rubinstein still had a contract and felt left out. He suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

There is one small thing left and I propose the following small change:

<After the war, Capablanca considered himself, Lasker and Rubinstein to be the strongest players.25 Capablanca began negotiations with Lasker in January 1920,28 and published "My Chess Career" to convince the public of his right to a challenge.26 Yet Rubinstein still had a contract and felt left out. He proposed an official body to administer the world championship, and suggested a triangular tournament as a compromise to determine the champion. But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.25>

Perhaps this can be phrased better, but I think it is a good idea to mention Rubinstein's suggested official body as it foreshadows the actual chess federation. It is also in line with later developments (not only of Fide), but also of the London Rules. Like the first early steps, which show where the voyage was going. The realization of the need of an institution other than the world champion to administer these issues - the London Rules also form a part of it with several world class chessplayers signing them (not just WC and challenger deciding individual match conditions). With the Fide later and then, finally, its conrol over the world championship.

Feb-07-14  Boomie: <Karpova>

Looks good.

Perhaps the last two sentences could be improved.

<But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe,27 and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. However, the Cuban declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.>

Following a "But" sentence with a "However" sentence sounds a bit off to me. The "But" seems necessary in the first one. I wouldn't use the comma after Europe but that's a minor issue.

<But Rubinstein had lost his basis of financial support in post-war Europe and Capablanca was left as Lasker's chief rival. Capablanca declared that, should he win the title, he would accept a challenge from Rubinstein.>

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