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Jul-08-07
 | | WannaBe: <whiteshark> I did more 'research', thanks for your message earlier. I found this one, but the age/authenticity of the clip, I can't confirm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0HZ... This one, with the scratchy music, seems to be quite old. Then I found out that (Lotta Lenya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotte_...) she played the villainous Rosa Klebb in a Bond movie! 'From Russia with Love': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G63... Now, this one, is very modern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotte_... Things that you learn every day! |
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| Jul-09-07 | | the idiot prince: I've found some winning combinations against LokaSoft's Little Chess Partner here. Do you folks think that I should share these variations, or should I try and sell them to LokaSoft - will they buy? Am I being ridiculous? I feel like my work is proprietary knowledge and that I shouldn't just spit it out there - what do you do when you've found ways to beat the latest chess programs (keep it a secret and try and sell it perhaps, or divulge for free and make the computers and their makers stronger without any compensation whatsover?) Thanks! |
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Jul-09-07
 | | WannaBe: <the idiot prince> I would post your moves, this way, LokaSoft can improve upon the software. As far as a move being 'proprietary', new moves are made in chess games almost/virtually everyday, and they're published online. =) |
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| Jul-09-07 | | the idiot prince: But why should I help LokaSoft, or any other computer programmer FOR FREE! I spent hours dissecting some of the openings on their "ELO 2000" rated program - why would I want to give them a way to strengthen their program without any compensation for my time and effort? |
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Jul-09-07
 | | WannaBe: <the idiot prince> Good question, the best answer that I can come up with (which may not be the most 'correct' answer) is this: You are playing with the Li'l Partner for free, the game maker have spent their time and energy to make the software, and you get to use/play with it for free. I'd return the favor by telling them your discovery. That's my feeling. =) |
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| Jul-09-07 | | the idiot prince: Ok, maybe I'm wrong here and I'm supposed to just give away my solutions to some of their set variations for the "greater good", but then what about all the chess fans out there constantly complaining about computers always beating humans nowadays? Shouldn't we be finding ways to insure that the top chess players in the world remain human? Secondly, I don't know how these tournaments work, but there's no way that a clock should be used in any way whatsoever in a human vs machine match. The human player, whoever he/she is, should even be allowed to adjourn the game, go home and run their own computer analysis (if they so choose) . . . rendering computers obsolete as opponents. Just my opinion. In any event, I'm just glad to have my little victories over the machines and prefer to keep it that way, unless someone at LokaSoft wants to pay me to shoot holes in their programs. Computers may play flawlessly in certain parts of chess, but they still have to choose among several correct possibilities and so I can't imagine they'd ever actually "solve" chess, as has been irrationally feared. |
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Jul-09-07
 | | WannaBe: <the idiot prince> What you decide to do, is what you do. :-) But do keep in mind, the Li'l Chess Partner is a fairly small program (executable size) that's not compable to major commercial software (Shredder, Fritz, Junior, Hiarc, Rybka, etc...) |
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| Jul-09-07 | | the idiot prince: So, what's the latest consensus then on the potential for computer programs to "solve" chess, and what would solving chess actually mean? A draw every time, or White or Black winning every time? What is the latest verdict on computer chess and where is there a discussion about it. Can computers really solve chess? I don't see how it's possible since there are usually more than one "correct" or winning variations in any given position in the majority of a game. |
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Jul-09-07
 | | WannaBe: With the current hard/software that we have, 'solving' chess is quite a stretch. Computers and softwares can do a lot of calculations in a very short period of time, but they do reach a certain horizon in their depth. See GM Nickel's victories over Hydra, and how The World uses the sliding strategy for ensure the horizon isn't 'lost' when using computer's assistance. Now, if/when quantum computing comes along, it will be a different ball game, I personally think the game will be proven to a draw. |
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| Jul-09-07 | | the idiot prince: Well, as it is now, many GMs and other players out there have been able to create draws almost at will for over 150 years, if they so desire. In order for a computer to successfully "solve" chess, in my mind, it would have to find an absolutely flawless, and perfect response for every single move of either side, and win with White (or Black!) every single time - not draw. I doubt this is even possible, given that most situations on a chess board have more than one correct "solution" and lead to whole new sets. All computers do now, and all they will ever be able to do, is calculate the optimal solution as its been programmed to do - by humans. Humans, without time limits (AND the assistance of computer analysis as a supplement if desired) should always be able to beat computers because the "solution" in chess is not always going to be checkmate, or even how to get the King into a checkmate as quickly as possible. It could be something as simple as winning a pawn, or achieving the right color bishop. Computers have to choose among several options, just like humans, but have the limitation , as I see it, of being stuck with a certain program. That program would have to be as complex as the human brain to handle the game properly. Who knows! |
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Jul-09-07
 | | WannaBe: 12:10 AM, can't sleep, been tossing and turning in my bed for the last 45 min... =( |
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| Jul-10-07 | | brankat: That's what computer related issues can do to You:-) Life used to be so much simpler before we had them. |
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| Jul-11-07 | | ganstaman: Computers solving chess....
Let's assume for the moment that we have a computer that has access to an unlimited amount of space, and that we can run it for longer than the universe has existed (and we won't even have to die watching since this is imaginary!) (in case anyone believes this to be a really short time for religious purposes, let's just pretend the universe is 13.7 billion years old). Ok, now that we have that set, what will the computer be doing? Simple -- making a tree of every possible move. So we have at the start of the game 20 branches for the 20 possible moves white can make. For each of those 20 branches, we have 20 branches for all the possible responses by black. And so on (the number of branches from there on depend on the actual moves). Eventually, each branch MUST reach an end -- either a draw, a win for white, or a win for black. Also, it is important to note that every possible chess game is contained within this tree. That is simply the way it is constructed as I have described. We will use numbers here too: draw is 0, win for white is +1, and win for black is -1. And now bear with me as I attempt to explain the Minimax algorithm without the use of diagrams: suppose we have a node (node A) where it is white's turn to move and so he can choose from any of the branches from this node. Suppose that for each of these branches, we reach a leaf node (that is, the end of the game -- either a draw=0, win for white= +1, or win for black=-1). White will choose the branch that maximizes the score (so if there is a +1 branch, he will take it, if not he will take a 0 branch, if not he is stuck with a -1 branch), and we will call this score X. We can now assign the value X to node A -- when we reach node A, we know that white will choose a move that produces value X (or worse than X if he doesn't want to win). Now, let's say that node B is a node where it is black to move. From node B, there are several branches, one to node A (value X), and others to other nodes that also have obtained values similar to how A did it. Therefore, at node B, black can choose from a number of branches that lead to nodes with scores (0, +1, or -1). Since he wants to win, he chooses the branch that minimizes the score (call it Y). And so just like we gave A the value X, we can give B the value Y. As you can see, we are alternating up the tree, minimizing and maximizing the scores all the way up to the top. My conclusions in the next post before this gets too long. |
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| Jul-11-07 | | ganstaman: Hoping WannaBe doesn't mind this too much...?
So then at the top of the tree, we will see that for each of the 20 moves for white, there are various scores associated with each move. These scores represent the outcome if both sides play perfectly. Now, as before, white simply chooses the branch that maximizes the score. That branch, followed all the way down the tree, is a perfect game. Important notes on this:
1) There are only 3 possible scores, but many branches per node. Therefore, it is reasonable that many times, several moves will be best. Choosing any of these moves will have the same end result (win, draw, or loss). 2) This algorithm is perfect given near infinite time and space. Research the Minimax algorithm more if you don't believe it can work that well. Modern chess computers basically work like this, only they have severely limited time and space, so they cut off the tree and just apply evaluation functions (instead of going to a draw, win, or loss). No evaluation function is applied here. 3) The perfect game (or games) can be a draw, win for white, or even win for black. No matter what you think about chess now, there is no reason that any of these results would be impossible. This is a simple statement of fact unrelated to computers. Maybe hard to accept, but a FACT nonetheless. So, final conclusion: Computers CAN 100% without a doubt solve chess. Then again, so can humans. Only issue is that it takes more time and space (space being computer memory, or paper if a person does it) than we have. So it is not practical in the least. But this would result in perfect play from any position, whether that perfect play draws, wins, or loses though I can not say without this solving having happened already. Also, look up endgame tablebases, as that is another method for solving chess, only I don't know how it works off the top of my head well enough to explain it. |
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| Jul-11-07 | | ganstaman: <the idiot prince: Shouldn't we be finding ways to insure that the top chess players in the world remain human?> Why? Machines are faster and stronger than people. They can see farther and smaller. They can hear fainter sounds. They can do complex math quicker. They can print faster and more accurately. Instead of fearing that machines are taking over, we should stand back in awe, recognizing that it was we who built those machines and programmed those computers to do things our own bodies simply can not. Computers can play chess better than the human brain, but it was the human brain that gave computers that power. It's not that we've lost a battle, but instead it's that we've accomplished another amazing feat. We should be proud. |
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| Jul-11-07 | | brankat: <Machines are faster and stronger than people. They can see farther and smaller. They can hear fainter sounds. They can do complex math quicker. They can print faster and more accurately. Instead of fearing that machines are taking over, we should stand back in awe, recognizing that it was we who built those machines and programmed those computers to do things our own bodies simply can not. Computers can play chess better than the human brain, but it was the human brain that gave computers that power.> In other words we should quit playing Chess (together with a score of all other kinds of things, including emotional, spiritual and sexual, too). Which is the equivalent of allowing the take-over. As a compensation, we can stand back (in Awe), and enjoy the sight. Thanks God, I won't be around to see it. |
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Jul-11-07
 | | WannaBe: <brankat> There are always 2 sides of the coin when it often comes to technologies. Biologists aren't afraid of computers that can solve genetic sequences, doctors aren't afraid of computers that can scan/image a patient faster than human, chess players shouldn't be afraid of computers that can play chess better. My 2 cents. and I think <ganstaman> wrote some wonderful posts. Thank you. |
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| Jul-11-07 | | ganstaman: <brankat: In other words we should quit playing Chess (together with a score of all other kinds of things, including emotional, spiritual and sexual, too). Which is the equivalent of allowing the take-over. As a compensation, we can stand back (in Awe), and enjoy the sight. Thanks God, I won't be around to see it.>
No, not at all. We can still enjoy chess with other people or with computers (sex with computers is not to be recommended, however). People still run races, have weight-lifting comptetitions, throw darts, etc. We just shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking computers can't do all that better, or that that somehow removes the fun from it. <WannaBe: My 2 cents. and I think <ganstaman> wrote some wonderful posts. Thank you.> Thanks. I'm just glad they ended up making some sense. |
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Jul-11-07
 | | WannaBe: Alright, time to <spam> my own forum a bit... :-) Half done with "Einstein", and <It is a marvelous/wonderful/great/stupendous read!> I don't think my knowledge of English can accomplish what I want to describe. I'll try to give a more detailed book review when I'm done with this delightful book. |
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| Jul-12-07 | | brankat: <WannaBe> From "Canadian Open" page: <<<WannaBe> Maybe something for you to consider for next year!><<WannaBe> <brankat> Only if it's in Vancouver, and I get to meet you and the lovely <jessicafischerqueen>! :-))> <If I go, can I be 'cheap' and stay with you?? I'll buy the beers down at the bar.>> I don't believe Canadian Open will be held in Vancouver. As far as I know for last few years it has been held in Ottawa. But we do have a "Paul Keres Memorial" taking place in Vancouver every year, in the month of May. As You may know Paul Keres died in Vancouver back in '75, just after winning his last tournament here. The Memorial tourney usually happens sometime between May 20-25. The main tournament is not as strong as the C. Open, but there are always a few, GMs, IMs etc. And, of course other groups, like U1,600, 1,600-1,800 etc. Depending on the group and the time of entry, the rates are, I think, somewhere between $85-125 Can. I can find out. Should You want consider something like this, You can stay at my place any time, there is plenty of room here. No problem at all (except for the empty fridge) :-) |
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Jul-12-07
 | | WannaBe: Guess we'd have to put some Molson in that fridge then. |
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| Jul-12-07 | | brankat: <WannaBe> We can talk more about this once You start making Your Chess-related plans for the next year. Actually, Vancouver is not that far for You, and it's beautiful here in May! I don't think it's more than 2 hours flight from LA. Driving would probably take too long. Some 20 hours straight driving at least, plus rest, sleep, lunch, dinner etc = 2 days. A waste of time. Unless You prefer to swim up the coast :-) |
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Jul-12-07
 | | WannaBe: I'll just float and let the currents carry me, then again, I can end up in Japan. :-) If that happens, I'll catch the Keiko line and go to my friend's house. |
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| Jul-13-07 | | dbquintillion: You stated that you don't understand why there's all the animosity towards AJ. Did you read Acirce's post above yours? That's why. I won't repeat the post here because I'm not trying to turn this into a big deal, but the original reason this became an issue for me is that I think its fair to tell people why some of us feel animosity towards him. And I think its a good reason. |
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Jul-13-07
 | | WannaBe: <dbquintillion> Yes, I did read the post by <acirce>. I, too, do not wish to turn this into a big debate amongst the members. =) |
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