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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 67 OF 750 ·
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: I already see one error in my line, at the end the king can move to h4 and play g4, so then we have to take the a-pawn. But that too seems relatively good. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <sitzkrieg> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. I'm truly sorry for having been so negligent. I should have read through the posts more
carefully, to take note of your line. I will duly consider it now & get back to
you. So sorry about that. Thank you most kindly for your anticipated & continued patience, tolerance, understanding, consideration & assistance. Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | RonB52734: Qc6 Ra7 may also be worth considering. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <sitzkrieg> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. I'm going to do this a bit at a time. If Qc6 & we play Rc7, the risk is not Qa8, but rather Qf8+ & we can only move to d7 or
e7 & we lose the Kingside pawns next! More later, as I consider the rest of your line! Take very good care & have a
great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | RonB52734: <Cogano> has a good point. With our Bishop where it is right now, we cannot risk having to put our King between our Rook and our Pawns. However, the immediate point I suppose is that, as powerful as Her Majesty may be, it is not possible for the Queen to leap from c6 to f8 in a single bound. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: <sitzkrieg>, with respect to your line:
44.Qc6 Rd7+ 45.Ke4 Re7+, if I were White, I'd play Kd5 here, not f5. With their King on the 6th rank, say at c6 or e6 (d6 is out obviously because of our b8 bishop!), a check on the 8th rank will cost us either the bishop or the Kingside pawns! E.g.: 44.Qc6 Rd7+ 45.Ke4 Re7+, 46.Kd5 Rd7+, 47.Ke6 & now if Re7+, they play Qxe7+. So checks end & then what? What could we possibly play then, after 47.Ke6? We're left with Rf7 & Ra7, a
bishop move that makes having gone to b8 before at least seem redundant, & a pawn move, which isn't exactly in our best interest(s). The lot of you surely
will continue to disagree with me, as you did before. But I still think that my line was more dynamic & left far more possibilities open. As yet, none of you has satisfactorily defended Bb8 & demonstrated it to be a good move & demonstrated its potential. If they do play Qc6 & we don't want to check, we don't have that many options for candidate moves. Other than moving the bishop or one of the pawns, & if we don't want to check, then that only leaves Rf7 & Ra7, neither of which is particularly great. Ra7 will be followed by their King's march towards us. Rf7 leads to Qb6+ Kc8 (obviously forced!) Qe6+ Rd7+, Kc4 Kc8, Kc5 Rc7+ [if there's a better move, I can't think of it right now. I didn't get to sleep at all last night! :(]Kb6, then what? if Kc4 Kc7, then Kb5 & they continue to squeeze us. That's what I can come up with for now with my severely sleep deprived brain. I hope it helped. Take very good care & have a
great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: <If Qc6 & we play Rc7, the risk is not Qa8, but rather Qf8+> I agree. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: <E.g.: 44.Qc6 Rd7+ 45.Ke4 Re7+, 46.Kd5 Rd7+, 47.Ke6 & now if Re7+, they play Qxe7+> I disagree, or rather, dont understand.
the Queen is on c6 right? how can it hit on e7? Because of our bishop diagonal we can keep checking with the rook and the king cant move to d6. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | RonB52734: In the line that <Cogano> and <sitzkrieg> are discussing,
44.Qc6 Rd7+ 45.Ke4 Re7+, 46.Kd5 Rd7+, 47.Ke6 (diagram)
click for larger viewI at first thought that the move here is 48...Rd6+!, not ...Re7+ as you have been discussing. But after liquidating the pieces, I think we lose to their extra pawn and better King. So.... 47...Re7+ (diagram)
Results in the following position:
click for larger viewin which they are forced to choose either 48.Kf5 or 48.Kd5 And if 48.Kf5 Rf7+ they are further forced to retreat to 49.Kg4 or 49.Ke4 (because 49.Kg6 allows 49...Rf6+, which will net the Queen). |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <sitzkrieg> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. I'm afraid I don't understand you at all. "the Queen is on c6 right? how can it hit on e7? Because of our bishop diagonal we can keep checking with the rook and the king cant move to d6" How can what hit on e7? The rook? If so, what's to stop it from going to e7?
I never said the King would move to d6.
The risk was supposed to be the King going to e6, or, depending on the position, c6, but NOT d6. I don't remember moving the King to d6 in any of my lines. If I did, then I apologize
for the confusion. I hope you'll find the time to clarify your point. Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <Ron> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. Thank you so much for pointing that out & for putting a pic of the position. So I guess this means that if they play Qc6 we would at
least have perpetual check! Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | RonB52734: I'm not sure it's a perpetual check, but it's a long series of them. I think if White can get the King to the g file they can stop the checks, at least temporarily. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <Ron> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. Sorry for my oversight & thank you for pointing that
out. Despite the fact that it's not perpetual, it should at least disrupt their position. BUT, the King is uncomfortably close to f5, from which it can assist the Kingside advance! I'll have to give this position a great
deal of thought. Play now is very critical & we must move with great care. Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: I'm now looking at the possibilities of Qa3. It seems interesting. If they move the Queen there, checking the King
will only drive him to g6! Our g7-pawn traps the rook on the 7th rank. So we don't get any opportunity to go the 2nd
rank & threaten their g2-pawn. Had our bishop been in the vicinity of c5 & d4,
especially d4, we would have that option. But, the prevailing wisdom was to consign the bishop to the grave of the 8th rank! 44.Qa3 Rd7+, 45.Kc4 Rc7+, 46.Kb5 Rb7+, 47.Ka6 Re7 (to block Qf8+), 48.Qb4 Ba7,
49.Qd6+ Rd7, 50.Qf8+ Kc7, 51.Qa8 Kd6, 52.Qxa7 Rxa7, 53.Kxa7 & they queen next! Or 49.Qd6+ Ke8, 50.Qc6+ Kf8, 51.Qa8+ & as before. Or 49.Qd6+ Ke8, 50.Qc6+ Kf7, 51.Qc4+ Ke8 or Kf8, 52.Qc8+ Kf7, 53.Qa8 & Bg1 seems to be our only saving move! & they'll likely try a series of checks to try to fork the bishop. Do tell me what you think. I'll get back to you on
it. Take care all! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: <Cogano> To clarify my point; you said; <E.g.: 44.Qc6 Rd7+ 45.Ke4 Re7+, 46.Kd5 Rd7+, 47.Ke6 & now if Re7+, they play Qxe7+.> so that means u say Qc6xe7 and i dont see that happening. Thats all. I think Ron understood me (thanks for diagram), in order to escape the checks the king will probably best move to f5. We check, it moves to g4. And then we can play Rf4check and drive the queen back (i am not sure if this indeed is beneficial for us) or to h5, after wich we have Rf5check and a5 falls (and Kg6 is still not possible of course). If they dont move Qc6, we have the possibility of keeping our rook where it is, thereby keeping their king out of our kingside. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: So sorry about that <sitzkrieg> & thank
you so much for clarifying that point. I guess my mind is still quite cloudy from lack of sleep! I'm not sure I understand how, if they move to Kg4 because of our checks, & we check the King from f4 how that drives the Queen back. The Queen is at c6. Where are you
going to drive it back to? I guess moving their King around like that would lead to the a-pawn's loss. They might try Ke3, after Qc6 Rd7+, followed
by Kf3. I'm not sure. The present position is proving problematic for me.
I'm having trouble finding a winning line for us or at least attain an ideal
position for us. What a pity you played
Bb8! We lost a number of options that would have been open to us with a more centralized placement for the bishop! At the very least, I've always tried to
explain, back & justify whatever suggestion I make. & so there is an entire line of thought for the rest of you (plural) to examine. I keep hoping that I'll get more than "Let's play this or that" but rather an attempt to justify & defend the choice, so I can learn from your (plural) experience. I hope you (plural) will be vindicated in
your (plural) choice of Bb8, as I still fail to see what it does & can do for us. I look forward to your feedback. Take very good care & have a great day.
Cheers mate! :) |
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: ok. Cogano u got me there. We drive the king back..not the queen. See the line posted above. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: I will try to defend and explain our choiche for Bb8 as opposed to Rc7. I think there are a number of reasons. 1) The bishop at b8 can switch to a7 and prevent or blockade the advance of the a pawn, combined with the power of the rook.
2) In combination with the rook on the 7th rank, we can forever prevent their king to advance or help their a pawn.
3) By keeping the rook where it is, we have also more chance of keeping white's king out of our kingside.
4)Our piece position keeps a certain harmony, they defend eachother and the vital squares.
5) the bishop is our best piece for blockade.
These are the reasons i can think of right now, the others probably can tell you many more. It might be you were right, maybe Rc7 was better, but we will have to see that in the post game analysis. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Robin01: I see white has not replied yet. That is good news. |
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| Feb-28-06 | | sitzkrieg: I hope so! |
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| Feb-28-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <sitzkrieg> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. Thank you most kindly for taking the time to explain Bb8 for me. That really helps. I need things like that to help me make
up for my lack of knowledge & experience & to be better able to understand your & the others' arguemnt (s). In reply to your reasons:
1)From d4 or c5, if we couldn't keep the bishop on d4, we could easily
get the bishop to a7 or capture there.
2)Added note: at c5 & d4 their King has that many fewer squares he can
go to. So if our aim is to limit his movement a border square can't
possbily compare with a central one!
3)I guess you/we will need to decide where their King would be more of a
thorn in our side. With the bishop on a central square, it may be possible
to move the rook & limit their King's movement that much more. Example:
Consider a scenario where our rook got to g5. Even if they advanced
their h-pawn to drive it away, that would lose their g-pawn instead! But,
I don't think you need to worry much about their King moving Kingside. If
you'd take time to review my previous lines, you'll find that I presented
possibilities in which they tried to attack on both sides of the board &
we still came out on top! So, for me, you haven't convincingly demonstrated
that moving their King Kingside makes a threat that we can't adequately
answer!
4.Our pieces have as much of a harmony with the bishop on a central square
as they would with the bishop stuck on the edges.
5.Prove it. How does the rook fail to block, if we post it on a7, whereas
the bishop succeeds? They can check all they want. But, unless they want
to draw with perpetual check, I don't see them being able to do much so
long as the rook is on a7, the King on a8 or b8 & the bishop on f6. Yes,
it is true that with our King on a8 or b8, bishop on a7 & rook on b7, everything is close to each other & well
protected & the a-pawn's progress is stopped in its tracks.
BUT, there are 2 problems with that. When the bishop is safe on f6, we no
longer have to worry about it. So, when we're trying to move the King
Queenside, we need only keep the rook in front of him. Whereas with the
bishop there, there's always the remote possibility of it getting in
the way, falling to a fork or letting either the rook itself or the g-pawn
fall to a fork. The other problem is that while the rook protects the pawn
so long as it's on the 7th rank, it can't do a thing about the g5-square.
Whereas the bishop on f6 protects the g7-pawn & guards the g5-square! The
rook can always join it later on the 5th rank, when the need presents it-
self. Again, if you check previous posts, you'll find that I already
presented lines dealing with this possibility.
I look forward to your feedback. Thanks again. Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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| Mar-01-06 | | RonB52734: I am sorry to see us debating the merits of a move that has already been made; there are many more productive exercises. |
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| Mar-01-06 | | Cogano: Hello again <Ron> & I sincerely hope this finds you well. I'm sorry you see it as a waste. For me the purpose is two-fold. Perchance I may learn something & perchance the debate reveals possibilities & positions neither <sitzkrieg> or I may otherwise have thought of. Joining the team wasn't because I thought myself so capable of helping you, that I had such insight to share with you, but rather to learn & improve my chess understanding through BOTH playing with you (even if only through the end of a game) & through whatever insight & experience any of you can AND IS WILLING to share with me. My sincerest apologies again. Take very good care & have a great day. Cheers mate! :) |
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Mar-01-06
 | | WannaBe: 44.Qc6 has been played.
click for larger view |
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Mar-01-06
| | WannaBe: I Agree with <RonB52734>'s line posted on Feb, 28th <RonB52734: In the line that <Cogano> and <sitzkrieg> are discussing, 44.Qc6 Rd7+ 45.Ke4 Re7+, 46.Kd5 Rd7+, 47.Ke6> They would not move their king to c-file and get Q+K lined up for a pin. And I think even if we do play 47...Rd6+ followed by 48. Qxd6 Bxd6 49. Kxd6, I believe we can get a stalemate. |
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