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chancho
Member since May-16-05
<Jer 20:10-13

Jeremiah said:

"I hear the whisperings of many:
'Terror on every side!
Denounce!
Let us denounce him!'
All those who were my friends are on the watch for any misstep of mine.

Perhaps he'll be trapped; then we can prevail, and take our vengeance on him.

But the LORD is with me, like a mighty champion: my persecutors will stumble, they will not triumph.

In their failure, they will be put to utter shame, to lasting, unforgettable confusion.

O LORD of hosts, you who test the just, who probe mind and heart, let me witness the vengeance you take on them, for to you, I have entrusted my cause.

Sing to the LORD,
praise the LORD,
for he has rescued the life of the poor
from the power of the wicked!">

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<1 Corinthians 13

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<The Promise of the Lord's Coming

The Second Letter of Peter

Chapter 3

1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you; in them I am trying to arouse your sincere intention by reminding you

2 that you should remember the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets, and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken through your apostles.

3 First of all you must understand this, that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and indulging their own lusts

4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!?

5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water,

6 through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished.

7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.

8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.

9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.

11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness,

12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire?

13 But, in accordance with his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home.

Final Exhortation and Doxology

14 Therefore, beloved, while you are waiting for these things, strive to be found by him at peace, without spot or blemish;

15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,

16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

17 You therefore beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability.

18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.

Amen.>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<Psalm 23

The Lord is my shepherd; there is nothing I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.>

Chessgames.com Full Member

   chancho has kibitzed 44554 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Sep-22-25 A Kimmel (replies)
 
chancho: Look who's back!
 
   Sep-20-25 Chessgames - Sports (replies)
 
chancho: I see nary a mention of Terrance Crawford defeating Canelo Alvarez on this page. First guy to win undisputed championships in three weight divisions. Henry Armstrong won three back in the 30's, but they were not undisputed. Manny Pacquiao won 8... but again, not undisputed. Crawford
 
   Aug-14-25 Chessgames - Guys and Dolls (replies)
 
chancho: More, More, More. (Andrea True)
 
   Jun-07-25 Norway Chess (2025) (replies)
 
chancho: He left the championship on his own terms. He has won everything in sight. No better way to exit the stage.
 
   Jun-03-25 D Gukesh vs Carlsen, 2025 (replies)
 
chancho: Also called: The Angry Fist.
 
   May-27-25 Carlsen vs D Gukesh, 2025 (replies)
 
chancho: <Poor is the apprentice who does not surpass his Master.”" - Leonardo da Vinci>
 
   May-24-25 Bogdan Pietrusiak
 
chancho: His highest rating was 2310 according to this link which translates in Polish and Spanish: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogda...
 
   May-09-25 Chessgames - Music (replies)
 
chancho: All this Steely Dan talk... Here's a song from 1973: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h-...
 
   Apr-29-25 perfidious chessforum (replies)
 
chancho: Perf, just heard about this: <The White House has hit back against a reported plan by Amazon to detail the price impact of Donald Trump's trade tariffs to its customers, calling it a "hostile" political act.> https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c... It's like, how dare Amazon
 
   Apr-26-25 John Eyre (replies)
 
chancho: From Tournament: 33rd Hastings Premier 1957/58... One-Week Open B: (1) <John Eyre> (London N14) 4½/5; (2) Peter Merrett (East Grinstead) 3½; (3) William Arnold Parkin-Moore (Mitcheldean) 2½; (4) N. W. Robinson 2; (5) R. L. Baker 1½; (6) Lewis James Worsell 1. ...
 
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Chess and Things

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 46 OF 200 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jun-11-08  pacorrum: <isemeria> <2. Bg5> is less played bacause it does not fulfil any classical positional goal, ie. occupying the center like <2. c4> or <2. Nf3>, which also speeds up the castling. But I don't regard it as a bad move by itself, and it would carry a considerable shock effect.

We would have 2 days to decide among <2. ...e6>, <2. ...c5> and <2. ...Ne4> which give rise to very different setups. GMAN playing the Trompowsky is just a guess, but I think it would be cunning to work out at least our response in advance.

Jun-11-08  kwid: Jun-11-08 << pacorrum: <isemeria> <2. Bg5>> <I think it would be cunning to work out at least our response in advance.>

Agreed! This is my reason why we should try to solicit our preferences and make an assessment which of our advocated individual pet lines when adopted will serve us best.

How do we generate adequate interest to get a core of the team behind the idea that we need to reach positions which are demonstrably best for our collective chess vision where the degree of uncertainty is kept to a minimum will be quite a challenge.

We should copy the methods of all strong players who make preparations to obtain a familiarity with the likely encountered pattern which guides them through the transitional phases of a game.

According to my perception that most beginners will adopt lines derived from replaying Master games which seem to coincide with their preconceived perception that their learned moves is reflective of their own playing style and thus will convince them to be their remedy to be successful until proven otherwise. Leads us to conclude that the influence of recent successful games at top level play will be the fashionable lines adopted by most players.

A quick review of the number of game played with their pet line together with an acceptable success rate makes it safe to assume that most players would chose as a reply to Bg5 Ne4 and not e6 nor c5.

But with the present amount of information available on the Internet or books projecting personal views about certain lines influences at times our personal biased perceptions which seeks to hang on to our lines with which we have been successful. Most of us believe we have the answer to avoid loosing again and are eager to demonstrate it in our next encounter.

If we seek information in support of our biases it will deprive us to improve or change our preconceived ideas about the validity of certain openings. This advice may be very helpful for beginners. We all have to go through this stage and learn to accept that only the lines which are derived from historical tested ideas will help us to improve our playing strength. Therefor as we gain experience mainly derived from our own losses will we begin to be more receptive to the ideas from our peers even if they run contrary to our own which will help to elevate us to a higher playing level.

So, what will we play in reply to Bg5? A safe pet would be Ne4.

Does it deserve an exclamation mark? Where will it lead us?

Jun-11-08  kwid: Jun-11-08 < kkshethin: >

<I think if we do not make any mistake in opening or say till 15 half move, and create a game of almost equal opportunities but with some less chess pieces, we are going to win due to our brute strength/ engine power against any formidable opponents.>

Well , this is quite a compliment for our team. I wish I could share your optimism about our playing strength.

I belief that our previous challengers did underestimate our collective wisdom and took risks in order to give us a lesson. But for our future contests we will encounter a more cautious approach from our opponents taking into account our demonstrated abilities. Even against GJT's Dutch defence we let our self drift into a draw position during the opening stage. We seem to lack the knowledge how to maintain the initiative with white to reach a promising middle game position. For this upcoming game we should prepare how we could take away whites initiative in a manner as GJT accomplished against us.

Your are right to assume that we are collectively stronger than GJT and we would not have lost the reached middle game positions as he did.

My hope is that we will be better prepared by studying the most likely encounters from GMAN giving us a chance to play for a win instead of accepting his draw attempts. Why a draw is the most likely outcome is based on my hunch that he will considers such a conclusion as a success for him and thus stay clear of any line which carry a reputation of uncertainty.

Jun-11-08  hms123: One outcome of this forum could be a summary of the discussion that could be posted at the beginning of the next GMAN game. It would have two components:

1. an overall assessment of the team's strengths and weaknesses by phase of the game--e.g., hard to agree on an opening strategy rather than vote move-by-move, computers not much use in the opening if we get out of the book early; computers more valuable tactically in middle game situations, etc.

2. some guidance about our likely choices given various opening moves-- e.g., I am resigned that we will probably respond to e4 with c5, but I never play e4 and always play e6 in response to e4, so I don't need to be wasting everyone's time touting the French defense. Alternatively, it looks like some sort of (semi-) slav is likely against d4, which is a conversation I could contribute to.

There may be other themes that would be of general interest. I think something like this would help us all by focusing the discussion on lines rather than on moves, and would help new members to buy into whatever strategy we use to get the game started. I would be willing to attempt such a summary at the appropriate time.

Comments?

Jun-11-08  kwid: Jun-11-08
< hms123:> <always play e6 in response to e4>

Your statement suggest to me that you have never reached the playing status where you must always play for a win in order to remain on the top.

French defence is a very good defence against equal opponents where a draw with black is an acceptable outcome.

I say this to emphasize the importance for selecting an opening for various opponents.

In our case we have a much higher rating than our opponent it could well be more than 300 elo points meaning that such an opponent is expected to lose against us. But we must first reach positions which are winnable with superior play.

For example if we would choose to play the french, white could keep the center open and reach a balanced pawn structure using whites initiative. White could then simplify the fight for the center by removing any potential tensions reaching into position where it would take only 1800 elo strength to hold us to a draw.

We need to create unbalanced positions rich with potential possibilities to create and exploit weaknesses with an analysis's depth which is beyond our opponents horizon if we hope to win.

Jun-11-08  hms123: <kwid> My point was that the team is not going to play the French--but not necessarily for reasons related to the opponent. (I understand your reasons and agree with them.)

I have never played high-level CC but have played in Swiss-style tournaments where I needed a win in the last round against players over 2200 (US). I have confidence in the French--it suits my style, especially when I don't have the time to prepare for a specific opponent. Sometimes opponents over-reach; sometimes I am able to create sharp and unbalanced positions. None of that has much to do our current situation.

Again, I am using myself as an example of someone whose energies in the next GMAN game would be better focused by a successful consensus on this page about a range of issues. I am trying to help identify those issues and a structure to support a focused discussion. Your comments are exactly the sort that others need to see. If I can be the example for the comments, that's fine with me. That's how I and others learn.

Jun-11-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: 1.e4 Nf6 (only black response to e4 at the World Championship OTB level with a winning record)

1.d4 d5 (heading for a semi-slav)

Jun-11-08  hms123: One further point: there are really two tasks for this forum:

1. coming up with a set of strategies and rationales for those strategies, and

2. figuring out how to communicate those strategies and rationales to the larger group in a way that leads to intelligent decision-making by the team.

The latter task is every bit as important as the former. As a lawyer might put it, you've got to convince the jury.

Jun-11-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: <hms123> You may achieve 1., but 2. is not going to happen. As a lawyer, I would say that you'll have a "hung jury." :-)

Seriously, I have participated in all of these CG Challenge games and it has become very clear that in the initial stages of the opening, MOST people (which includes an awful lot of people who will vote for the first 3 to 5 moves and then drop out)will vote for what they want/like.

Jun-12-08  truefriends: Wouldn't it be interesting if we could vote for an opening instead of a move? Then we would know a little better why people vote for a move :-)

I also get the feeling GMAN won't play a 'main'-mainline cause he must know from our previous game (he has read our forum afterwards) that agreeing on our openingchoice is the hardest part of a game for a Worldteam.

Jun-12-08  isemeria: It's only possible to vote for a move not an opening because of the transpositions. I don't know how the move could be decided from the opening votes. But it would be helpful communication if people declare their intended opening with their move. Like <kwgurge's> "1.d4 d5 (heading for a semi-slav)"

This information could be listed in <Karpova's List>. For example, after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4, the list could look like:

2...g6 (King's Indian)
user1, user2, user3, ...

2...g6 (Grünfeld)
user4, user5, ...

2...e6 (Nimzo/QID)

2...e6 (Nimzo/QGD)

2...e6 (Semi-Slav)

2...e6 (Benoni if 3.Nf3)

2...c5 (Benoni)

etc.

Jun-12-08  truefriends: < isemeria > Exactly my idea!
Jun-12-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwgurge: <isemeria> That would be a good idea, but I don't know how much it would really tell us since, based on past experience, only 10% or less of the people who vote on the first moves will post anything at all.
Jun-12-08  isemeria: Yes, in the very opening it would much smaller sample compared to total number of votes. So the prediction value would be very little. But there's also the other aspect and that is to see what other <team members you know> have voted for. And in this case their preference of opening.

Look at User: The List

"During the last two correspondence games a number of kibitzers gained a lot of respect due to their thorough analyses and thoughtful posts. Many other players appreciate the possibility to see what those notable users voted for during their own decision-making process."

Jun-12-08  truefriends: <isemeria> I also think if we know which opening we would like to play we can avoid transposition tricks by GMAN. (for example 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 and hoping us to play 2... d5 so we can only play Queensgambit after 3. c4 instead of any Indian openings)
Jun-12-08  kwid: Jun-11-08
< kwgurge: <hms123> < You may achieve 1.,>

Ok let's talk about strategy.
1) French defence is an excellent choice against a higher rated opponent. 2) I belief that the main reason for selecting a particular opening at master level play is to get the opponent out of their familiar lines with a well prepared strategic plan.

We could look at GMAN's selected 6. h3 choice in one of his recent games.

Nickel,A (2618) - Siigur,J (2530) [B90]
WCCC27CT05(WS) ICCF, 20.10.2007
[Widmann,Kurt]

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.h3


click for larger view

(White selects not to play Be3/Be2/or approx. 6 other move choices with a higher known success rate than h3.)
In OTB this move would trigger e5 Boleslavski set up. In cc play we would try to exploide this seemingly tempo losing move.

Playing h3 signals Be3 next because Ng4 is now not posible. But it leaves the e5 reply as well as the Dragon g6, e6 Scheveningen and Nc6 Clasical which could lead int a Sozin Bc4 set up.

So let's play out those option to see where h3 does not fit or turns out to lose a tempo.

Nc6

[ 6...g6 7.g4

( 7.Bc4 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Be3 Bd7 10.Qe2 Nc6 11.Rfd1 Qc7 12.Bb3 Na5 13.Bg5 Qc5 14.Be3

( 14.Nf3 Bb5 15.Nxb5 Qxb5 16.Qxb5 axb5 17.e5 dxe5 18.Nxe5 Nxb3 19.axb3 Rxa1 20.Rxa1 Rc8 21.Nd3 h6 22.Bxf6 Bxf6 23.c3 Rd8)


click for larger view

14...Qc7;

7...Bg7 8.Bg2 h5

( 8...0-0 9.Be3 Nc6 10.Qd2 Nd7 11.0-0-0 Nde5 12.Qe2

( 12.b3 Qa5 13.f4 Rd8 14.a4

( 14.Kb1 Nxd4 15.Bxd4 Nc6 16.Bxg7 Kxg7 17.f5 Bd7 18.h4 Kh8 19.h5)

14...Nd7 15.Nd5 Qxd2+ 16.Rxd2;

12...Nxd4 13.Bxd4 Be6 14.f4 Nc4 15.Qf2 Qa5 16.Bxg7 Kxg7 17.Qd4+ f6 18.g5 Rac8 19.f5 Bg8 20.h4;


click for larger view

9.g5 Nfd7 10.Be3 Nc6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Nce2 Qc7 13.f4 Nxd4 14.Bxd4 Bxd4+ 15.Nxd4 Qb6;


click for larger view

8. Be3 Qc7 9. f4 b5 10. Nxc6 Qxc6 11. Qd4 Rb8) 7... e6 8. g4 h6 9. Qd2 Qc7 10. f4 b5 11. Nxc6 Qxc6 12. Bg2 Bb7 13. a3 Be7 14. O-O Rc8


click for larger view

As you can see diagrams or just looking at the arrived positions is very helpful for improving ones chess vision.

From here we can take a better decision how best to play against h3 unless we have already a prepared line for it.

This method may also help to demonstrate what is seemingly the best reply to h3 and why we should adopt it.

Which options would we recommend?

Jun-12-08  hms123: <kwgurge> I think you have nailed the issue: There are <an awful lot of people who will vote for the first 3 to 5 moves and then drop out>. They drop out, I guess, because they don't like the opening that was chosen. That's fine, but it leaves the rest of the team with a bit of a mess. I like <isemeria's> and <truefriend's> idea of a list where those who wish can state their choices of openings. Again, anything that would focus more voters has to be helpful at the margin.
Jun-12-08  kwid: Jun-12-08
< hms123: They drop out, I guess, because they don't like the opening that was chosen. I like <isemeria's> and <truefriend's> idea of a list where those who wish can state their choices of openings.>

Yes! This may well be the key to get a majority on board. Analysing an opening in such a depth would retain the interests of those who want to use it for their own playing carrier.

Why not compose a request for the main forum seeking a survey to find out our preferences but post the result at this forum and not for GMAN to see.

Jun-12-08  hms123: <kwid> I think a request on the main forum for a survey is an excellent idea. Let's see what others on this page think. (I will be out of town for 2 weeks and will not have internet access so I can't do much myself until I get back.)
Jun-13-08  zanshin: I really hate to sound so negative all the time, it's just that many of the ideas being floated around here were already done so at the start of the other games.

When you ask for a survey of favorite openings, you're going to get a lot of replies like: Ruy Lopez, Sicilian, KID, Bird's (yes quite a few here like the Bird's!), etc. But the problem still comes back to the fact that we vote for individual moves, not lines (even assuming cooperation from the opponent).

Still, if you guys can figure out a better way for us to play the opening, then more power to you and I wish you the best of luck!

Jun-14-08  isemeria: <zanshin> It's not negative, but rather realistic view of the situation. There's not much that can be done to improve the opening play.

And analyzing GMAN's games in order to plan our opening accordingly is futile. First, the task will not attract enough serious analysts, and secondly the results (if there will be any) are not applicable in the voting when everybody and their sister are voting what they like anyway.

How's that for negativity? ;-)

Jun-14-08  kwid: If we want to exercise at least some influence on the outcome of the coming event, we must set goals or aims to guide the team into desired positions. As in any high level game including computer matches opening books are considered as the mayor factor in the outcome of a game. I understand your view that we vote only one move at a time. This is the method any game is conducted. But moves are always associated with an idea and part of a desired direction. Our individual wish to win and the desire to use tested ways to get their, presents a challenge of how to persuade the majority to chose a road leading to a victory not seen within a 50 ply depth.

For example if he plays e4 and the team opt for the Naydorf, our road could lead us into the positions shown below. To keep winning chances alive we must evaluate the most likely reached positions first and then trace our steps back to assure that we are on the right track. Collectively we would be invincible if the majority is persuade that the chosen road is our best line worth spending their time analysing the various alternatives and propose to change direction if a better way for us can be found.

But first of all we need to show positions which we collectively assess to be of maximum value achievable via our recommended aims. And only then should we start stepping back in search for alternatives which would give us a higher value than our previous position.

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5

(6. Be3 e5 7. Nb3 Be6 8. f3 Be7 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Qc7 11. g4 Rc8 12. Kb1

(12. g5 Nh5 13. Kb1 Nd7 14. Rg1 g6 15. Nd5 Bxd5 16. exd5 a5 17. a3 Nb6 18. Rg4 Bd8 19. h4 Kg7 20. Re1 f5 21. Bxb6 Qxb6 22. Ra4 Kg8 23. Bd3 Bc7)


click for larger view

12... b5 13. Qf2 Nfd7 14. a3 b4 15. axb4 Nc6)

6... e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 dxe5 11. fxe5 Nfd7 12. Ne4 h6 13. Bh4 Qxa2 14. Rd1

(14. Rb3 Qa1+ 15. Kf2 Qa4 16. Qe3 Nc6 17. Nxc6 Qxc6 18. Rc3 Qb6 19. Qxb6 Nxb6)

14... Qd5 15. Qe3 Qxe5 16. Be2 Bc5 17. Bg3 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5+ 19. Rd2 O-O 20. Bd6 Nc6 21. O-O

(21. Bxf8 Kxf8 22. O-O Qe5

( 22... f5 23. g4 Nde5 24. Nd6) 23. Qf2 f6 24. Nd6 Qa5 25. Bf3 Nde5)


click for larger view

21... Re8 22. Qg3 f5 23. Qg6 Qd8 24. c4 Re7 25. Bxe7 Qxe7 26. Nd6 Nc5


click for larger view

Our question for team is this the direction we want to go or could we do better? Does anyone have a position which may be winnable and how to we get there if we opt for the Naydorf?

Jun-14-08  kwid: Jun-14-08 << isemeria: <zanshin> It's not negative, but rather realistic view of the situation. There's not much that can be done to improve the opening play. >>

Why could we not try to stimulate discussion at this site which would be attractive for players wishing to improve their opening lines?

We could select currently considered best main line for the Naydorf poison pawn variation as i have previously outlined. Or we select QI or KI positions and the lines to reach them?

Jun-14-08  sentriclecub: Same thoughts here...

even if it is futile, it only helps. What I thought would be nice would be for someone high rated to look at our prior 3 games and tell us at which move # did...

--the opening end?

--an advantage was realized?

--a win seemed equally likely as a draw

--a win seemed 75% likely

I think it will help our team's patience if we realize that sometimes this sequence can be 20 to 30 half moves long.

Jun-14-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  chancho: Learn our opponents preferences and limit those while we enhance ours. That's the ticket...
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