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< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 509 OF 1118 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: USSR-ch28 happened in 1961 and we have this game marked as round 1: Averbakh vs Furman, 1961

So several questions come up... why would there be two Averbakh-Furman games from USSR-ch28? Did they play mini-matches back then as part of the format?

We checked a few other online databases to see if they had an 80 move Averbakh-Furman game from that period but they just have the same games we have.

Looks like a nice game, though!

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen: <chessgames.com> and <peligroso patzer>.

<Peligroso's> game from the <Steve Giddins> book is indeed bona fide, but it has a crucial error in the <PGN info field>:

<Averbakh, Yuri - Furman, Semyon Abramovich [D32] URS-ch28, Semi-final, Odessa, 1960>

This game was from the semi-final of the <27th> URS Championship, not the <28th>, which causes the confusion.

The game is easy to find in "Rusbase" with the corrected PGN event field.

It's right here: http://al20102007.narod.ru/ch_urs/1...

To find the game <Peligroso> submitted, just click on the PGN zip file under the cross table and whoop there it is.

So to sum up:

1. The game is bona fide

2. There is an error in the PGN field (should be 27th URS Champ semi-final)

In the case of Russian games in particular, <Rusbase> features some of the best chess history research in existence.

<Rusbase>: http://www.al20102007.narod.ru/

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen: Getting the correct information into a PGN event field might seem like pedantry to some, but as we just saw, Event Field errors can prevent a bona fide game from being uploaded into the only online data base (CG.com) that has dozens of chess history buffs constantly submitting correction slips.

On that topic, how long is the pipeline on PGN event field corrections? It's been <two months> since I sumbitted this correction slip, and also posted the correction on the game page:

Alekhine vs K Junge, 1942

<Jan-25-12
jessicafischerqueen: I have submitted a correction slip for this game- >

<It was not played in Cracow, but rather <<<Lublin.>>>

This game is round 5 of the <Third General Government Tournament> played in Poland 11-28 October 1942.

Round 5 was played in <Lublin> on 17th October:

"The first four rounds of the tournament were played in Warsaw, the next four in Lublin and the last three in Cracow.">

--Alexander Alekhine's Chess Games 1902-1946
Skinner and Verhoeven, p.689

=============

The Event Field currently reads "Crakow" for venue and "?" for round. Now you can put in the correct venue and round, thanks to <Skinner and Verhoeven>: "Lublin" "Round 5"

Might take 5 seconds to read this and make the correction? Unless there is a long pipeline.

I tell you what worries me and why I'm putting this in the admin forum- I have a more general question:

Are the people who read the corrections slips operating under a "priority" system in which PGN event fields are given lower priority than other kinds of corrections?

If this is the case, if this is the policy, I advise changing it. Such corrections are as vital as any other, as we just saw in the "Peligroso v CG.com" Averbakh mystery.

Mar-24-12  frogbert: <Are the people who read the corrections slips operating under a "priority" system in which PGN event fields are given lower priority than other kinds of corrections?>

jfq, i would assume it's mostly a capacity problem, although cg.com would have to confirm.

however, i'm a tiny little bit frustrated by not being able to improve the database (its content, not anything technical) in certain, limited areas in a *much* more effective way than the current system of submitting correction slips allows for; submitters tend to express dissatisfaction every so often - not with the system per se, but with the turnaround time, at least for some corrections.

since it appears that cg.com doesn't consider this forum an area for discussing relevant suggestions of the current process in detail, i guess i'll try to send an email to figure out more clearly what the window of opportunity is for speeding up the improvement of the cg.com db content. the db is certainly not bad as it is, but it could be made even better!

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <JessicaFischerQueen> I believe that the Averbakh - Furman game was indeed from the <URS-28 ch SemiFinal> in 1960.

At that time, the Soviet Championships generally began in January. Looking at our two collections:

Game Collection: USSR Championship 1960

Game Collection: USSR Championship 1961a

The 27th was held from 1960.01.26-1960.02.26, and the 28th from 1961.01.11-1961.02.11.

The SemiFinals were generally held in a different city than the Final, and usually preceded it by at least a couple of months. Di Felice's <Chess Results 1956-1960> gives these locations and dates for the semi-finals in question, in both cases citing <Russian Chess Base> as his socure:

URSch-27 Semifinal: Yerevan, 1959

URSch-28 Semifinal: Odessa, 1960.08.20-1960.09.16

His crosstables show that Furman did not play at the first event, while URSch-28 matches the one you cited.

What's really confusing is that the 29th championship was also played in 1961, but we don't need to go into that.

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen: <Phony Benoni> thanks so much for that further information on the mystery! The <Rusbase> listings alone, when spread on the page, are indeed confusing- the semifinal events (played in more than one city) occurring in the year <before> the finals, because the finals usually played in January.

So then <Steve Giddins> had it right the whole time. Good for Steve eh?

And thank goodness for <De Felice>.

So the <Peligroso> submission is accurate as is.

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <So to sum up:

1. The game is bona fide

2. There is an error in the PGN field (should be 27th URS Champ semi-final)>

Thanks a lot JFQ! Here's where we usually scold somebody for not using the PGN Upload Utility but I suppose in this case it worked out for the best.

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <chessgames.com> No! The PGN is correct as is; the game was from the 28th URS Champ semi-final. It was played in Aug/Sept 1960, with the championship final beginning in January, 1961. Please see my earlier post.
Mar-24-12  brankat: GM Yuri Averbakh is still breathing. His new "Biography" book is about to be released, actually, it may have been already. Surely, (not Shirley) there should be a way of contacting him while he's still around, rather than speculating.
Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <JFQ> honestly we do give a lower priority to location/event type corrections, the reason being that we envision large blocks of these games corrected "en masse" when we start to normalize tournaments with game collections. (Whereas things like wrong results and wrong players won't just correct themselves.)

To actually answer your question about the pipeline, the numbers look roughly like this: there are about 4000 corrections in the queue. About 1000 of them get corrected a month. However, more trickle in, at the rate of about, um, 1000 a month. So the Librarian is both making huge improvements but ironically feels like she's on an endless treadmill.

In truth, the new slips are coming in at a slower and slower pace (sooner or later it's got to get hard to find obvious mistakes!) so progress is starting to be measurable.

In fact I see that the latest figure is 3600, down from 4000--so yes, we're getting there.

Mar-24-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <brankat> I don't think there's any need to bother him over THIS issue, we've got it squared away. <Phony> Don't worry we've got it, if there are any other problems put a slip in :)

Averbakh vs Furman, 1960

Mar-24-12  LIFE Master AJ: Just a suggestion: the player page for NM James Rousselle is full of nonsense. Jim is a nice guy and certainly deserves better, it would be good if you purged all the non-chess comments from it. (I am sure that he would not mind - in fact, we discussed this topic in New Orleans.)

Also - a question on games submission: Do GM games get a higher priority than other games? Or are all <submitted> games treated equally? What's the average response time on game submission running nowadays? Do you have a huge back-log, or are things going well in that area? (I submitted a few games a while back on openings that I was working on, none of these were ever posted, not that I could see.)

BTW, I submitted one of Jim's games from the Louisiana PRO-AM. It was played on Board One in the second round ... very exciting stuff. (At one point, I thought White was toast, his King was stuck all the way out on g5 ... with Queens still on the board!)

Mar-25-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Domdaniel: AJ is right in this case: I agree that the Rousselle page could use a clean-up.

Far as I can see, game upload time -- at least for non-GM one-off games -- is running at up to three months. A few of my submissions recently appeared after this kind of gap. I'd begun to think they'd been rejected, but I wasn't complaining. And I'm not complaining now either.

Best be moving along, in that case. If some *visible* person wants to mention the words "three months" to AJ, that's cool by me.

Mar-25-12  I play the Fred: <If some *visible* person wants to mention the words "three months" to AJ>

Paging <Patriot>, <Garech>, and <morfishine>.

Mar-25-12  AylerKupp: <chessgames.com> I just wanted to point out that per your request (sort of) from chessgames.com chessforum that I did some additional engine analysis of the Immortal Draw starting from <sofouuk>'s 10.Kb5. You can find it starting at Hamppe vs Meitner, 1872.

My analysis was inconclusive; Houdini 1.5a came up with lines indicating a significant (but non-winning) advantage for White, Rybka 1.4 and Stockfish 2.2.2 came to similar conclusions but after sliding forward White's advantage dissipated to positions evaluated as having even chances for both sides, and Spike 1.4 came up with lines indicating a significant advantage for Black. Lots of interesting, unbalanced, and complex positions. So I can't say based on these analyses that the Immortal Draw has been debunked. Therefore you may have a good starting position and topic for a Thematic Challenge.

Mar-25-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: AylerKupp thanks so much! It's amazing in chess how these age old arguments can keep showing us new wrinkles, and then wrinkles within the wrinkles.

Anyhow the members will make the final decision.

Mar-25-12  AylerKupp: Ooops, that should have been Rybka 4.1, not Rybka 1.4. And yes, the position turned out to have so many wrinkles that at the end my computer looked like a prune.
Mar-25-12  morfishine: <I play the Fred> Please elaborate
Mar-25-12  hms123: <morfishine> I think <Fred> meant that since you were one of the very few not on a certain person's ignore list, you might pass on <Dom's> message.
Mar-25-12  I play the Fred: <hms123> is exactly right.
Mar-25-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <LIFE Master AJ: Just a suggestion: the player page for NM James Rousselle is full of nonsense.> Agreed. It's not so bad that I can just wipe it all but it's not so good we can ignore it. We're going to take care of that soon.
Mar-25-12  twinlark: <ceegee>

I assume the ECO numbers and variation names are ascribed automatically, but occasionally there are some inconsistencies. One I've found is Naiditsch vs I Sokolov, 2012 and Naiditsch vs T Markowski, 2011. The former describes the position simply as Ruy Lopez Closed (C84), while the latter describes the opening as Ruy Lopez Closed Martinez Variation (C78) although they are identical up to move 11, these being the only two games in the database with this sequence of moves after move 8.

Also it doesn't seem like the more recent of the two games has found its way into the Opening Explorer just yet even though the opening has been ascribed and linked via the ECO number. At Opening Explorer, it should double up with the Markowski game.

No rush on this one, just thought I'd mention it.

Mar-26-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: <twinlark> It's sort of hard to explain all the details, but there are multiple programs that work on the games regarding the ECO. For stage one, we implicitly believe whatever the uploader says. Stage two we play through it, make sure the moves are legal, and assign something based on very simple rules. Stage three we use the Caxton database that has far more nuanced distinctions, to make a more precise analysis. Caxton almost never changes the ECO (in principle it shouldn't do that ever) but it often changes the name to something more specific.

These programs run once a week minimum, but when we are busy with new games (i.e., all the time) they run several times a day. Case in point: I look at the games you mention and they are already fixed, at least they are both assigned to C78.

Mar-26-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: <it would be good if you purged all the non-chess comments from it>

Disagree. That is his player page, and it is his right to Moderate it how he sees fit. Let that player decide for himself.

This suggestion came from the same user who took advantage of this space to complain about someone's profile with allegedly profane content, in his opinion. You said you would stop allowing posters to come here debating rule violations and expecting special treatment.

Mar-26-12  twinlark: Thanks <ceegee>.
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