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| Mar-02-15 | | zanzibar: <Tab> But it's not quite so easy... conformity with other databases, and with FIDE, is a consideration. Cepedes is used by
<Chessgames> (currently, but it was Cepesdes not too long ago) as well as
<MillBase>, <365chess>, <ChessTempo>, <Chess-db>, <es.chessdom>, <chessmicrobase>, Because of FIDE's mistake, it also shows up in tournament pages, e.g. http://www.doeberlcup.com.au/DBL201... and even on Susan Polgar's site.
On the other hand <chessbase> and <chessbites> both use Cepesdes. I wonder what TWIC does? |
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| Mar-02-15 | | zanzibar: <TWIC> uses Cepedes too, probably reflecting tournament name, which probably reflects FIDE: http://www.theweekinchess.com/html/...
<CG> is more than a biographical reference, it's a database resource as well. So, I would vote to follow FIDE's mistake until corrected. Of course the Player's Bio should give the proper name, and note this problem. |
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| Mar-02-15 | | Jim Bartle: Cespedes is a fairly common last name. I have never seen the last name Cepedes. |
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| Mar-02-15 | | zanzibar: <JimB> Yes, it's a mistake and wrong. We all agree. The trouble is that it's been memorialized into the databases. And it will continue to be until FIDE corrects the mistake. |
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Mar-02-15
 | | FSR: <OCF> You realize that they don't count blitz, simul and other exhibition games, right? For Fischer, they say: <Overall record: +420 -86 =247 (72.2%)*...
240 exhibition games, odds games, etc. are excluded from this statistic.> |
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Mar-02-15
 | | Tabanus: Very well. As a true believer, I just notified the God of all names at http://ratings.fide.com/suggest.phtml about Cepedes. |
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Mar-02-15
 | | chessgames.com: <FSR: It's not a momentous thing, but why is Frederick Rhine shown as having 32 games, when the actual number is 33?> It's a cache issue. A player of Rhine's status is important enough to have their own header, with a link straight to their FIDE card, repertoire explorer, and everything—but not important enough to recompute on a daily basis. It will right itself soon. <FSR: Am I correct in understanding that your current policy is not to have any game be GOTD more than once? If so, I presume that I am safe to delete puns that I have submitted for games that later became GOTD under a different pun? I have at least three of those.> More or less. We occasionally bring back a GOTD that we've used with a different pun than the first time, but that's extremely rare. When we find submissions like that we try to see if there is a different game that might do well with the same pun, but if you'd prefer to figure that out for us, all the better. |
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Mar-02-15
| | chessgames.com: About the <Cepedes> vs <Cespedes> issue, I am not very familiar with the name from daily use, but from how I read people describe it, it would be as if we had an entry for Smisth instead of Smith. An obvious typo. I just fixed the Amador Rodriguez Cespedes record and left an editor note that explain what we did and why. I don't see what the excitement is, other than the fact that numerous databases have it wrong. |
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Mar-03-15
| | Tabanus: <CG> Thanks. Let's see if FIDE follows after ;) |
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Mar-03-15
 | | OhioChessFan: <FSR: You realize that they don't count blitz, simul and other exhibition games, right? > I knew it. I somehow forgot it. Forgetting things seems to happen more and more these days. |
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Mar-03-15
| | FSR: <OCF> Gotta read the fine print. |
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| Mar-03-15 | | Abdel Irada: <FSR: <OCF> Gotta read the fine print.> But who ever does read the fine print?
Honestly, does anyone here actually peruse each software license agreement from beginning to end before clicking "I agree"? Some of these EULAs are many pages of dense legalese, most of it boilerplate ... or so we hope. Then again, it wouldn't much surprise me to discover, one day of the days, that somewhere along the line I have unwittingly consigned my mortal remains to the custody of the research and development department at SixtySecondSurgery.com, Inc. ∞ |
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Mar-03-15
 | | moronovich: <Abdel Irada: <FSR: <OCF> Gotta read the fine print.>
But who ever does read the fine print?>
Lawyers have to read it. |
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| Mar-03-15 | | zanzibar: RE: A. Rodriguez
http://ratings.fide.com/id.phtml?ev...
So, it appears that he is not only active as a trainer, but also as a player. Which reinforces some of my concern.
Let's review...
<An obvious typo.>
No, not so obvious to me or other non-Spanish speakers I think (Jim Bartle lives in Spanish S. America, I think, and so I assume is fluent in Spanish). I had to inquire on his homepage when I first bumped into the issue, and required the generous help of knowledgeable users to clarify: Amador Rodriguez Cespedes (kibitz #9) I was trying to reconcile discrepancies between databases, including and especially, against FIDE. I believe I was the first to point out that FIDE was using a different name (the wrong name, as it turns out). Please note this comment by me: <<CG> and no less a respected source as <Carolus> give it as Cespedes, but my databases give it as Cepedes.> from March 31, 2014.
(1) <CG> was using <Cespedes>. Having done that once, when I recently began working on Subotica izt (1987) I had to undo it, because <CG> had changed the name to conform with <FIDE>. Date sometime before <2015-02-27>. (2) <CG> was using <Cepedes> <I just fixed the Amador Rodriguez Cespedes record and left an editor note that explain what we did and why.> Dateline: <CG>-land, today. (3) <CG> is now using <Cespedes> again! I have to go back and correct once again for this name difference, something I've done and undone once before. You can imagine my impatience at these shenanigans! (cont) |
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| Mar-03-15 | | zanzibar: (cont)
* * * * *
< I don't see what the excitement is, other than the fact that numerous databases have it wrong.> Look, just publish all your games with PID, CID, TID, and GID's and I won't give a bat's tail about it either! Holy crow, you aren't the one having to chase your tail change after change. If you give me a PID then I will simply just ignore <CG>'s names from here on. * * * * *
Obviously, neither <Tab> nor <chessgames> have spent much time manipulating big databases into conformance in order to check for bad moves, dates, player names, colors, results, etc. etc. Now, you guys might like working in the stone age, but you aren't the ones finding rot creeping into the database. It takes powerful tools, and they need a little help to be properly set up. A certain minimal level of stability is needed so I can baseline this stuff. At least we have public notice on this matter. But since I'm not an editor, I don't get to see these notes (or do I?) I want to be as correct as possible too, but I also want a workable, and practical system. * * * *
Ironically, to be strictly correct, let me point out that Cespedes is also wrong. As is Rodriguez. The player's correct name and title is: <GM Amador Rodríguez Céspedes> See <cro777>'s comment from November. I think the Bio is the place to note the player's correct name, including dicritics etc. In fact, Cyrillic, Chinese, etc. names should be given (which wiki is increasingly doing, thanks to utf-8). The header name given by <CG> isn't the correct player's true name, it's the name used by the software in the database. Sometimes, it's the name that was memorialized in Western journals, and might be at odds with the true name. * * * * *
Really, I'm working on Subotica, and <Tab> is working on <Taxco>. I don't think <A Rodriguez> played in <Taxco> He did play in <Subotica (1987)>. So why is Tab submitting corrections for a player involved in a tournament I'm working on? Is it because I pointed out the Cepedes/Cespedes discrepancy in one of my blogs? I'm glad to know that FIDE has a suggestion box. I didn't know they had one. Once they correct the name we won't have to worry about new submissions generating a new player name. (Or does <CG> have a million-and-one checks for all these potential bugaboos?) I was trying to normalize all my names through <MillBase>, which is very good about matching names. But I need some stability in the system, and certainly episode might be considered a counter-example. |
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| Mar-03-15 | | zanzibar: <Now, you guys might like working in the stone age, but you aren't the ones finding rot creeping into the database.> This is a little unfair.
I apologize, but I was a little emotional, and rhetorical zeal got the better of me! |
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| Mar-03-15 | | zanzibar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee3... |
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Mar-03-15
| | Tabanus: <So why is Tab submitting corrections for a player involved in a tournament I'm working on?> I'm submitting such on every player I find, nothing to do with you! Else I appreciate your emotions! I have been hoping CG could differ between the pgn names and player names in the headings, so that it would be for example Céspedes and Böök in the headings but Cepedes (or Cespedes) and Book in the pgn's. Sorry my bad English. |
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Mar-03-15
 | | jessicafischerqueen:
<Z> Like <Tab>, I also appreciate your emotions, and agree with the substance of your points. I also appreciate your hard work in discovering systemic errors in our database, and your quest to explore, and hopefully get the admins to enact, a systemic solution to the "normalization problem." As far as I know, there is still no transparency of any kind on correction slips. I'm still hoping <cg> enacts one of their ideas on this topic from a month or so ago- to automatically flag correction slips from games in the <TI> so that we can see, and evaluate, them in the Bistro- before a "correction" is made, and an existing <TI> collection is ruined- without anyone knowing. Again, I doubt that just waiting for a member- you, for example- to actually dig through the <TI>, find the errors, and then manually repairing the damage (as Cg did do), is the best solution. Surely, a systemic normalization problem calls for a systemic solution? |
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Mar-03-15
| | chessgames.com: I hadn't realized that we used to have Cespedes, then it turned into Cepedes, until it was recently fixed. That makes it more interesting. Conceivably the program that reconciles FIDE spellings with our database names might have been the culprit. In fact, it's that time of the month to process the new FIDE list. It's constantly making changes like this: <PID 140168 Convert "Midha Abuaita" into "Medhat Abouita"> There is a special stop-list of names which this program is forbidden to touch, for various reasons, and that list now includes Cespedes. We're not opposed to the notion of including CG index numbers in our PGN, but there are various considerations that have to be made first, like whether or not it should be optional, and exactly which IDs to include. |
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| Mar-03-15 | | john barleycorn: <FSR: It's not a momentous thing, but why is Frederick Rhine shown as having 32 games, when the actual number is 33?> They only counted the brilliancies :-).
Just kidding <FSR>. |
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Mar-03-15
| | chessgames.com: On the subject of accent marks and diacriticals, the solution has been mapped out but it will be a bit of a chore. As you know we currently keep two strings for each player, the "name" and "long-name", so for example we have "Richard Reti" and "Reti". One for the player page, or if he is player of the day, etc. The short version is used when we need to say "Reti-Lasker" or the like. What's needed to support the true spellings of these names are two more renditions of the name with the proper unicode, "Richard Réti" and "Réti". Of course the fields wouldn't exist for every player, just the ones that need it. These two new fields would be used for display purposes just about everywhere, so you wouldn't be able to find "Reti" (without the accent) anywhere on the site, with one major exception: the diacriticals forms would not appear in the PGN. (Or conceivably, even that could be an option.) |
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Mar-03-15
| | chessgames.com: <As far as I know, there is still no transparency of any kind on correction slips. I'm still hoping <cg> enacts one of their ideas on this topic from a month or so ago> We are totally in favor of some sort of improved transparency but after the discussions it's still a bit unclear how it should work. To do this right, a new kind of logging infrastructure must be built, although that's not as difficult as it might sound. As a temporary patch I might be able to work out some scheme where a daily edit log is put on public display, after it's sanitized with things like IP addresses etc. |
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Mar-03-15
| | chessgames.com: On a different topic, I am afraid I must report some tragic news. Alberto Artidiello, my friend of over 20 years, co-founder of Chessgames, passed away of heart failure yesterday at the young age of 55. |
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| Mar-03-15 | | hms123: <Daniel>. I am very sorry to hear about Alberto. Take of yourself. Howard |
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