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Nov-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> -- <Merediths & Eggtimers> --Probably less than 5 mins, as I'm too attention-deficient to stick with anything for long. But not *much* less than 5 mins, as it wasn't easy. I tried various queen moves, looking for a way to position the queen so it could reach the h-file (for the ...Kh2, Qh8 mate) while also covering key squares to assist a Ng3 mate after ...f1(Q). So the 2nd rank, and b2 in particular, kinda jumped out at me -- then I just had to check that everything worked. The Qg2 mate after 1...f1(N) was a bonus. I have a book of Merediths -- it's just a cheap paperback, years old, called something like <The World's Greatest Chess Problems>, but actually they're all of this type. One gets used to the recurring ideas -- both the real solutions and the traps laid by cunning composers, where a plausible move *almost* works. A knight underpromotion is a common way of throwing a spanner in the defensive works, if you see what I mean... To answer your actual question: 3 to 4 minutes. Is that OK? 'Course I *guessed* the answer in 3 to 4 seconds, but that's beside the point. And I didn't follow up the guess in a rigorous manner, but went off to try even dodgier guesses. For what it's worth, I didn't set it up on a chessboard. I almost never do, partly because I don't have a chess set or board, apart from an eccentric Italian marble one and an avant-soviet Tatlinesque one from Russia, with pieces missing. Neither much good for actually playing chess -- but, hey, if I ever want to use my interior home decor to convey my intellectual interests, they'll come in useful. Them and the great big stonking piles of books, which any self-respecting decor guru would junk on the spot. |
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Nov-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> Another PS: remember Roman-Lasota (c'mon, it was yesterday, man) and the variation going 8...Nc5 9.Rxe7 ... ? Which I think we both liked. I haven't time to go into it now, but there's a giant gaping hole in it. If black plays the obvious recapture on e7, he gets murdered -- I concocted some nice mating lines where the black king gets pushed around the board mercilessly, and other lines where the black queen gets nimzoistically 'checkmated'... But he/she doesn't have to recapture. It turns out that after 8...Nc5 9.Rxe7 the reply 9...Ne6 is rather strong. I spent ages analyzing this last night: White can just play Rxe6, with two pieces for rook and a couple of pawns. Black is perhaps slightly better in this line (where the capture on e6 can also be delayed for a move or two without changing much). The main alternative is 9.Rxe7 Ne6 10.Bg5 f6 11.Rxg7+!? which gets crazy. I'm sure Tal could have played it and won, but I couldn't find anything better than 'unclear'. Play around with it, if you like -- I'll post some of my analysis later. Gotta go write some work stuff now... |
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| Nov-13-07 | | achieve: <Dom> Will do that, fearless Fuhrer... I remember to have looked briefly at Ne6, but must have blocked it out, for some reason... Now we can't have that, can we? "Will report later today, sir!"
Oh, um... <To answer your actual question: 3 to 4 minutes. Is that OK?> It took me longer, which means that it was ... "Splendid, son.." (Sean Connery accent)
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Nov-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> Before I go, I must quash a scurrilous and unfounded allegation, and maybe sue you while I'm at it. I may have solved your meredith in less than five minutes, but I can assure you I did not "do a U-5". Also. You asked Jess to post something 'smart and/or sexy' (i'm paraphrasing). Must I remind you that *everything* Jess says is both smart AND sexy, even when she's pretending to be an idiot. The Frogspawn Rule of Webby Thumb: Jess as an idiot is still smarter than most people laid end to end. Exit. |
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Nov-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Jess> -- <"Back to Bled"> -- One of the finest volumes of a medical encyclopedia ever written. Not to be confused with Dibdin's Italian cookery mystery <Back to Bologna> or the infamous instruction manual in gender relations, <How to Hug>. The latter volume ended with a fine piece on a Swiss chess master, as far as I can recall, which is about as far as you'd throw a baby's memory. |
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| Nov-13-07 | | achieve: <Dom> These are the best moves for both 7. O-O 0-0
8. Rf1-e1 Ne4-c5
9. Re1xe7 Nc5-e6
10. Bc1-g5 f7-f6
11. Re7xg7+ Kg8xg7
12. Bg5-d2 d7-d6
13. Nf3-h4 Ne6-g5
with advantage .44 for White...
But I need to double-check the lines, tomorrow...
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Nov-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: And so to Bled.
<Niels> I think I reached the same conclusion about that sequence, which can actually come down to a dead drawn endgame. We shall see ... |
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| Nov-13-07 | | achieve: <Dom> <Jess> I had a terrible malfunctioning inside my comp last Night and now again I may need to get rid of this one...it's gone ballistic again as i am typing this. I may have to log in tomorrow from university- this one has gone mad... |
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| Nov-14-07 | | achieve: Will it hold up this time?
<Jess> I fortunately was able to check my mailbox and see your EMU - thanks - but if this comp will hold up over the next few days I do not know... I'll have the PC doctor over to do a full check as to what the problem was/is... My communication with you guys is of course vital to my existence. <Dom> Yep, I had done some sliding forward and reached 19-ply and was planning on investigating the lines and post my findings- which came down to the position being rather balanced-- when suddenly the comp trouble started...
Rebooting, getting a connection, it all failed...
But now I seem to have it up and walking again.
If I can manage I will check the lines wednesday.
Also I must agree with the <Frogspawn Rule of Webby Thumb> All that and then some... |
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| Nov-14-07 | | achieve: <Dom> This is the position following the sequence of moves I gave last night -- after 13 Nh4 Ng5 -- 0.46 advantage for Black (not White as I said yesterday) click for larger viewPersonally I feel that with the loose pawns on h7 and f6 - that the light squares on the b1-h7 diagonal look a liability for Black... Also the dark squared long diagonal can become a means of attack for white as he still owns the DSB... comp line at ply-16 and 13 minutes thinking time:
16.01 12:36 -0.46
14.Bb3 a5 15.c3 Be6 16.Nf4 Bxb3
17.axb3 Kh8 18.cxd4 Qd7 19.d5 Ne5
20.f3 Rg8 (29.288.424) 39
But in order to prepare an attack the power of the huge Knights on both e5 and/or e4 is probably why the engine evals this as better for Black: 14 Bd3 will be met with Ne5
14 f4 will be answered by Ne4.... hmmm...
Hence the Bb3 suggestion, I think...
Back later
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| Nov-14-07 | | achieve: ...cont...
Controlling e5 seems vital to me - so I play (with White pieces) 14 f4 Ne4 15 Be1 Be6 16 Qe2 f5 17 g4 Kh8 18 gxf5 Bxd5 19 Bxd5 Nf6 -- and Black looks in perfect shape, although there is still a lot left after say: 20 Be6 Qe7 21 Bg3 Rae8...  click for larger viewAdvantage Black?
Looks like my f4 line does not work well enough... |
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Nov-14-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Hi Ho <Dom n' Niels>!! Good Grief an actual <chess discussion> has broken out in my forum. What next????
Regards,
JFQ |
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| Nov-14-07 | | chessmoron: Next summer I'll be teaching in Spain focusing on The Three Amigos: Guillermo Del Toro, Alfonso Cuarón, and Alejandro González Iñárritu. No more early stuffs in Mexican cinema. Charlie Rose's interview on the 3 directors in Pan's Labyrinth Extras DVD influenced me to do it. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Boomie: <jessieKim>
One of the cliches about learning chess is to avoid memorizing openings. Learn to play first then worry about the openings later, they say. This is probably good advice for the average player. However for someone, like yourself, who is talented enough to master the game, this is bad advice. You have a great memory. Use it to absorb complicated openings such as the Ruy, Najdorf, and Kings Indian. Your opponents won't be able to match you in the openings. Don't try to understand it. Understanding comes much later. Rather try to take advantage of your opponents' opening mistakes. Your rating will increase much faster than trying to outplay someone with a simple opening like the Scotch. This comes from go training technique. The first thing they ask a student is to memorize games. They don't give them any general rules like "knights before bishops". They just memorize games. By playing over these games from memory, the students slowly learn good from bad. Chess prodigies don't play well because they understand anything. They simply memorize the openings and refute their opponent's mistakes. That's the only way they could make master ratings in such a short time. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Elixir of Life: <Boomie> I have to also add that the Dutch and Sicilian Dragon as black, and the King's Gambit as white, is also very good. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | achieve: <Jess> <What next????> Dunno
Fasten your seat-belts
Dom and I have erupted -- there's no telling where or when this will end, ma reine. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Hugin: "Openings teach you openings. Endgames teach you chess!" -- Stephan Gerzadowicz, US Postal Chess Master
"In order to improve your game, you must study the endgame before everything else, for whereas the the endings can be studied and mastered by themselves, the middle game and the opening must be studied in relation to the endgame." -- Jose Raul Capablanca, World Champion 1921-1927 |
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Nov-15-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Boomie> It's not true that chess prodigies 'just' memorize openings. They do, but there are other processes going on. My favorite idea is that they literally learn chess like a language and become fluent in it. Nobody's really sure what kind of mental module allows children to absorb languages (and then gets turned off, so that adult learners will always have a 'foreign accent'). But I think the same mental capacity can also work with chess, maths or music. Hence prodigies, and their typically fast, fluent play. As for openings, I think the best advice is to play the ones that reach positions you like or understand, and the best way to do this is to try out many different ones. Then again, I played the French for years - and lost a lot of games - before 'understanding' it. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | zanshin: <Domdaniel: Nobody's really sure what kind of mental module allows children to absorb languages (and then gets turned off, so that adult learners will always have a 'foreign accent').> By coincidence, I was just talking about this in <JoinTheArmy>'s forum:
JointheArmy chessforum I read an article where the author argued it was an evolutionary adaptation wherein children are selected for learning languages to communicate, whereas adults are selected to learn language more slowly to preserve language integrity. I also read recently that child prodigies exist in only three fields: mathematics, music and chess because they do not require other life experiences to master. For example, there are no child prodigies in literature. All just food for thought ;-) |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Zebra: Having just read your post on <Jess>'s forum, I have a slightly clearer idea of your point about adults. It seems to be based on the assumption that the locus of language change and instability is children's acquisition of language. This may be a natural assumption, but from what I have read about language change, there is no real evidence that that is the case. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Zebra: That post was really meant to be on <JTA>'s forum. I'm getting too old to read, never mind learn languages. :) |
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Nov-15-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Zanshin> Exactly. I think the chess/ math/ music prodigy effect comes down to the fact that they're all formal rule-governed systems, but complex enough to allow for great creativity. You could, in principle, talk about a literature prodigy -- perhaps good at putting words together rhythmically. But the life-experience element would be missing, which is the reason that poets and novelists get better as they get older. And you don't seem to need that factor in chess, though experience has its uses. |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Boomie: <Domdaniel: <Boomie> It's not true that chess prodigies 'just' memorize openings. They do, but there are other processes going on.> The point I was making was a narrow one. Of course, I'm delighted that it inspired a discussion of the broader issues. Learning a first language is a special function for which the brain is wired. Alas, there is no chess learning circuitry. However perhaps it is analogous to learning a second language. I'm not aware that children are especially adept at this. Music is perhaps a more apt analogy as it combines practise and study. Listening to music is similar to playing over games. Mozart remembered everything after one hearing. I suggest that memorizing games is what makes prodigies. Everything else takes too much time to be much of a factor. |
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Nov-15-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Boomie> Everything else takes too much time from *our* perspective. But a four-year-old child can learn ten new words per day, every day, without even trying -- while simultaneously absorbing rules of sound, structure, grammar, etc. I think the right kind of exposure to chess, at the right age, can piggyback this language module. It may only apply to certain subvarieties of maths and music -- number theory and Mozart rather than statistics and Stockhausen. Or the Velvet Underground. The more purely formal, the better. I've been writing about a (fictional) chemistry prodigy who can visualize molecules so well he seems to talk to them. I have no idea whether this is strictly plausible, but I like where it leads... |
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| Nov-15-07 | | Boomie: <Dom: I think the right kind of exposure to chess, at the right age, can piggyback this language module.> You may be right but I doubt it. I believe the language learning circuitry is specialized. However I don't have much to offer in support of this. Perhaps the studies of aphasias can point to new uses for the language functions. I don't see how this could be anywhere as efficient as learning language. Another issue concerns the aspects of chess, such as spatial ability, which have nothing to do with language. |
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