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Jun-01-09
 | | Phony Benoni: The ususal slogan is "good pitching beats good hitting", but I don't know if that applies in this scenario. In a dream line-up where every hitter is Hall-of-Fame caliber, there would just too much pressure on the pitcher, no matter how great. It's the same situation where a team has one superstar, but nobody to back him up. If the superstar has a bad day--or can simply be contained--the rest of the team is unable to pick up the slack. I'll have to do more thinking about second base. I would exclude Hornsby as well on intangibles; he doesn't seem to have had good chemistry. For example, after managing the Cardinals to a World Series victory in 1926, he was traded to the Giants. In 1927 for the Giants he hit .361, 26 home runs, 125 RBIs, 133 runs scored--and got traded to the Braves. In 1928 with the Braves, he hit .387, 21 home runs, 94 RBIs, 99 runs scored--and got traded to the Cubs. Gotta wonder about the intangibles with a record like that. |
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Jun-01-09
 | | WannaBe: It's like looking at a resume with heavy accomplishments, but the person worked for 5 different companies in the last 7 years!! =) |
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| Jun-01-09 | | Jim Bartle: "Please come in, Mr. Hornsby. Take a seat, we're glad you're interested in working for our company. "Now for starters, I have a question. Why is your name Rogers rather than just Roger?" |
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| Jun-01-09 | | technical draw: "Sure, I'll explain, just as soon as you tell me why you have a ladies name, Mr. Joyce." |
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| Jun-01-09 | | Jim Bartle: "Mr. Povich, I know you are a fine sportswriter, and we would like you to write a column for us. But could please explain, why your name is Shirley?" |
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| Jun-01-09 | | technical draw: "I'm sorry, I can't hire you. I thought Sally Jessy Raphael were 3 people". |
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| Jun-01-09 | | Deus Ex Alekhina: Cheating in baseball: who can forget the George Brett - Billy Martin Pine Tar Incident & the look on Brett's face as the whole thing unfolded: at first, laughing, & then running out like a banshee when the ump called him "out" Back in the 60's whenever the Tigers went to Chicago, the announcers were always talking about spies with binoculars stealing signs & suposedly the baseballs were kept in freezers overnight. And who was it that had the corked bat that broke after getting a hit?? Oh yeah, let's not forget hockey & its own fun: remember goalie Glenn Hall used to vomit before every game? |
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Jun-01-09
| | Phony Benoni: Looks like I picked a bad week to give up puns. |
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Jun-01-09
| | Phony Benoni: I've been doing a little more research into great second basemen, and here are a few to consider: 1) Rod Carew. Good offensice stats but spent too much of his career at first base. 2) Frankie Frisch. .316 average, switch hitter with over 2800 hits. seven pennants and four World Series wins, the last as player-manager. 3) Nap Lajoie. .336 average, over 3200 hits, great power for his time, and a reputation as a flawless fielder. Once got several congratulatory telegrams from Tigers' players when it appeared he had beaten out Cobb for a batting title. May not have been the brightest streetlamp on the block, though. As player-manager, he was known for signalling his outfielders by waggling his fingers behind his back--in full view of the enemy bullpen. Connie Mack, his former manager, always seem to do especially well against Lajoie's teams. 4) Charlie Gehringeer. .320 average (50 points better than Morgan), 2800+ hits, over 1400 RBIs (250 more than Morgan, in substantially fewer games). Surprising power, with 184 home runs (to Morgan's 268); had double digits in homers nine straight years and 11 out of 12. Not nearly the base stealing threat, however. Known as the Mechancal Man in the field--in a good sense. I like Gehringer. Besides, if I'm going to diss Ty Cobb, I've got to get a Tiger in there somewhere. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Jim Bartle: "Once got several congratulatory telegrams from Tigers' players when it appeared he had beaten out Cobb for a batting title." !!!
I think people look at Morgan's .270 average and figure "how great could he be"? But he walked so often--hitting on front of guys like Johnny Bench and Jack Clark--that he had a lifetime .400 on-base percentage and scored 1650 runs. And as Bill Russell (they went to the same high school) once told him, "It's funny how all these winning teams seem to follow you around." |
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Jun-02-09
| | Phony Benoni: Morgan is probably the best second basemen of the last half-century, Hiss combination of power and speed was unique, and you have to love his "intangibles". But, though Gehringer's stats might have been a bit inflated in the offense-mad years of the 1930s, I think he shouldn't be underestimated. Lajoie was the kind of hitter who once got an intentional walk with the bases loaded--in the dead ball era, mind you! Collins' forté was consistency; did any one else pile up 3000 hits with only <one> 200-hit season? |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Jim Bartle: Don't know much about Lajoie, so I looked up his record. Pretty impressive. But what really surprised me is he played many years for a team also called the "Naps," which I had never heard of. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | playground player: Brooks Robinson over Schmidt or Mr. Steroid for all-time third baseman! With all due respect to Mike Schmidt (and much is due), it's a lot easier to field on astroturf than on natural dirt and grass. Statistics don't tell the whole story, even though baseball's statistics are more informative than most. Robinson at third base was a magician! And he wasn't exactly chopped liver at the plate, either. Having seen both of them play, I have to go with Brooks. After him and Schmidt, no one else is even close. Graig Nettles was a pretty snazzy fielder, but I always had my doubts about him after that time the top of his bat came off and all those super-balls fell out. |
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Jun-02-09
| | Phony Benoni: Lajoie came up with the Phillies in the late 1890s, and was an instant star. When the fledgling American League became in 1901, he jumped to the Philadelphia Athletics. The Phillies took the matter to court, and in early 1902 got an injunction providing that Lajoie could not play baseball in Pennsylvania except for the Phillies. The Athletics then sent him to Cleveland. He was such a smash hit there that the team was renamed the Naps in his honor, and kept the name until he left after the 1914 season whereupon they became the Indians. That's not even the best Lajoie story. Do you know the background of the 1910 batting race between him and Cobb? When I get home tonight, I'll write that one up (I can only take so long for lunch.) |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Jim Bartle: Third base:
Brooks Robinson probably was the best fielding 3B of all time, but not in Schmidt's zip code as a hitter. The huge difference in run production outweighs the runs Robinson saved. (Who was it who said, "How hard is it to manage the Orioles? All you have to do is know how to spell Robinson"? Another great third baseman, and apparently a really classy guy, was the Braves Eddie Mathews. Not quite in the class of these other guys, though. How scary was Aaron, Mathews and Adcock in the middle of a lineup? |
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| Jun-02-09 | | hms123: I watched Robinson play third base for years and no one was better. He was also good for a clutch hit when needed. I would take him over anyone. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Jim Bartle: With all respect, I just don't see that. You'd take a guy with an on-base average below the league averages and 270 homers over a guy with 540 homers and a lifetime .380 on-base percentage. Also, as much as everybody admired his fielding, I don't remember anybody claiming he was the best third-baseman ever while he was playing. In fact, the consensus seemed to be that Eddie Mathews was better and Ken Boyer just as good. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Jim Bartle: Trivia question:
Which NCAA college basketball player of the year later played for two World Series winning teams? |
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| Jun-02-09 | | hms123: <Jim B> Brooks won the Golden Glove every year from 1960 to 1975 (16 times). Schmidt won it 10 times and Boyer only 5 times. That should count for something. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Jim Bartle: Of course it counts for something; it counts for a lot. But hitting counts a lot as well, and Robinson just wasn't a hitter anywhere close to Schmidt, Rodriguez or Mathews. Ozzie Smith was a great player, and very much the equivalent of Robinson at shortstop. I don't hear people claiming he was the greatest shortstop of all time. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | YouRang: <I think people look at Morgan's .270 average and figure "how great could he be"?> Also, take into consideration that Morgan had rather low batting numbers during his first few years, and again in his latter years. But during those middle years, I think he was incomparable. Here is what he did during the 6 years from 1972-1977: He batted .301, which combined with his 118 average walks per year gave him a whopping .429 on-base percentage. And when he got on base, he was a terror on the basepaths. He averaged 60 stolen bases, with an 83% success rate. So, it's not too surprising that averaged 113 runs scored per year. Perhaps a little more surprising is that he averaged over 84 RBIs during those years, even though he usually hit 2nd in the batting order. But he did for power, averaging 22 homers and 28 doubles each year, giving him a .495 slugging average. For good measure, he was aguably the best fielding second baseman. He won the Gold Glove award in 5 of those 6 years. Other honors during those years:
- League MVP twice (and was in the top 10 MVP voting 5 times) - Was an All-Star all 6 years.
I remember as a young Dodger fan watching them play the Cincinnati Reds. The Reds had an incredible lineup back then, but the Red player I dreaded the most was Joe Morgan. :-) (There were a couple years in there where George Foster was also murder for the Dodgers, but that was relatively short-lived.) |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Travis Bickle: <YouRang: <I think people look at Morgan's .270 average and figure "how great could he be"?>
Also, take into consideration that Morgan had rather low batting numbers during his first few years, and again in his latter years. But during those middle years, I think he was incomparable. Here is what he did during the 6 years from 1972-1977:>
It didnt hurt Joe Morgan to have a Hall of Fame lineup hitting ahead of him and behind him. Ryan Sandberg was a better fielder, less errors per chances and had more range. While Morgan was a much better base stealer, Sanberg hit for a higher average with a much less talented lineup than Morgan. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | Travis Bickle: When you guys analyze baseball players of the early years of baseball, guys like Lajoie, Hornsby, Cobb etc. you have to consider these points. #1 the pitchers in the early days pitched at least nine innings almost every time out, tired or not thus giving up many more hits due to arm fatigue. #2 the fielders for the most part were much slower than most of todays players thus allowing more hits to drop in giving guys batting averages in the clouds. #3 the players mitts were nothing more than an udgraded catchers mitt that was much smaller and much harder to catch with also allowing for such inflated batting averages and RBI's. |
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| Jun-02-09 | | YouRang: <Travis Bickle> I won't argue with you. Ryne Sandberg also has a strong claim to the "best second baseman" title. But for some reason, as a Dodger fan, Morgan drove me crazy more. :-) Sandberg brings up the subject of <horrible trades>. He was originally with the Philles, but they traded him to the Cubs for Larry Bowa and Ivan DeJesus. Imagine how the Philles would have done with this infield: 1st base: Pete Rose
2nd base: Ryne Sandberg
3rd base: Mike Schmidt
Shorstop: Larry Bowa
That's 2 hall-of-famers (3 except for Rose's gambling scandal) and a multiple all-star/gold-glove winner in Bowa. The could hardly lose. :-O |
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| Jun-02-09 | | YouRang: <Travis Bickle: When you guys analyze baseball players of the early years of baseball, guys like Lajoie, Hornsby, Cobb etc. you have to consider these points. > Truth to that. One stat that confirms this is the number of triples. For example, Gehrig averaged 12 triples per season in his career, Ruth averaged 9 triples per season, and Hornsby averaged 12. None of these guys were particularly fast. Now, coming into modern times:
Joe Morgan, for all his speed, only averaged 6 triples per season, and his career high was 12. The all-time base-stealer, Ricky Henderson, averaged 3 triples per year. |
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