< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 914 ·
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Sep-07-06 | | suenteus po 147: It's Michael Jackson's "FILLER!" |
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Sep-08-06 | | square dance: ok guys, 4...Nd7 it is. i'd like to see some recommendations and analysis if anyone has any. im going to do some tonight myself, so expect to see that by the morning, at the latest. |
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Sep-08-06 | | square dance: filler |
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Sep-08-06 | | suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> & <square dance> Ugh, the ultra-solid 'Karpov' defense has been played. It's so solid that the few times I played it online as black I accidently drew my games. However, a quick look through some key games show that 5.Ng5 might gives us some tactical possibilities. I will be researching this move heavily, unless you are already on it <square dance>. I think we should split up moves to research to cover more ground in less time. |
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Sep-08-06 | | suenteus po 147: Boris Karloff used to host "Filler." |
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Sep-08-06 | | square dance: <sp147> i am already on it! and i was probably going to recommend it. i have to look into it further. |
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Sep-08-06 | | square dance: filler |
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Sep-08-06 | | suenteus po 147: Well, it looks like we're in agreement then. Still, each of us should take a move or two (what looks interesting to us) and then present our findings here as we've collected them so we can make an informed decision. I think our best shot is 5.Ng5, but let's only consider that our default move until we've posted our findings. I guess I'll look through the standard 5.Nf3 since it's the biggest and oldest. That means <Phony Benoni> can look through 5.Bc4 since there are less games and precedents there. |
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Sep-08-06 | | suenteus po 147: Chaucer's "The Filler's Tale." |
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Sep-08-06
 | | Phony Benoni: So we've got the solid 4...Nd7 to face. Frustrating. 5.Nf3 doesn't look interesting at all. 5.Bc4 and 5.Ng5 just seem to transpose into each other without scaring Black. I might suggest 5.Bd3, which seems to lead into some more independent and interesting lines. But my theoretical knowledge of this line is nil. |
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Sep-08-06
 | | Phony Benoni: Yes, the queen sac is mate in five. Very nice! |
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Sep-08-06 | | square dance: <pb> 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bc4(Bd3), so 5.Bd3 is probably a transpositional move too. |
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Sep-08-06 | | square dance: filler. |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: from The Caro-Kann! In Black & White(from beliavsky's-white-perspective): after 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bc4(Bd3)...e6, black later drives the knight back with h7-6 and the following pawn structure occurs.  click for larger viewthis structure differs from the classical setup on by the position of white's h-pawn. here it is still on h2, and this makes black's endgame prospects brighter. but the cost of this is the delay in developing the queen's bishop. now it will require a considerable loss of time. white gets a stable initiative, which is based on the occupation of the e5 square by the knight. in positions of this sort, black's important freeing method is the undermining advance c6-5, which leads to a white queenside pawn majority and the prospect of an outside passed pawn there in the endgame. but the lack of pawn weaknesses gives black the chance to equalize, given accurate play. karpov has this to say: in the opening, of course, the dynamics of the pieces takes primary importance. with the knight on g5, black must always watch out for the possibility of the knight striking e6. but if he can stop this he will get a solid enough position. the rest is very similar to what beliavsky has to say. |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: filler |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: here are some notes to the 5.Ng5 <Ndf6> lines. the actual game(psahkis-rodriguez, sochi 1988) is highlighted as well as some of the notes. <1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5.
Ng5 Ndf6> <with the idea of letting out the Bc8 before playing e6.> (5... h6 6.Ne6! Qa5+ 7. Bd2 Qb6 8. Bd3 Ngf6 (8... fxe6 9. Qh5+ Kd8 10. Ba5) 9. Nf3!? fxe6 10. Bg6+ Kd8 11. Ne5 <and white has a strong attacking position.>) <6. Bc4>
(6. N1f3 Bg4 (6... e6 7. Ne5! Nh6 8. Bd3 <and it is difficult for black to
castle. see nunn-tal, brussels 88 for an example.>) 7. Nxf7 Bxf3 8. Nxd8 Bxd1
9. Ne6 Bg4 10. Nc7+ Kd8 11. Nxa8 e6 <and black will take the knight in due time.>) (6. Bd3 Bg4 7. N1f3 Bh5 (7... h6? 8. Nxf7! Bxf3 9. Bg6!) 8. c3 e6 (8... Qc7 9. Qc2 h6 10. Ne6!) 9. Qb3
Qc7 10. Ne5 Bd6 11. f4 Be7 <with a complex game.>) <6... Nd5 7. N1f3 g6 8. O-O
Bg7 9. Re1 h6 10. Ne4 Bg4 11. c3 Ngf6 12. Nc5!> |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: more filler |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: here are some notes on the 5.Ng5 <Ngf6> variation, which is what i would expect if we decide on 5.Ng5. i went into more detail here so that you guys could get a good feel for how to play these lines and the thematic ideas involved; e.g., control of the e5 square. btw, all of these notes are by beliavsky. im now convinced that 5.Ng5 is the right move since we're going to play Ng5 anyway, but the real decision is between playing the bishop to d3 or c4, and by playing 5.Ng5 we'll have an extra day to decide. let me know what you guys think. <1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5.
Ng5 Ngf6 6. Bd3><6.Bc4 is probably more flexible. it leaves the choice of,
after Nb7, Bd3 or b3. 6.Bd3 strengthens the white N on g5 since on 6...h6? 7.
Ne6! is possible. black must alway consider this.> <6...e6>
<fianchettoeing the bishop with 6...g6 and 7...Bg7 weakens the Kside and allows white to effectively utilize the e5-square and Ng5.> (6... g6 7. N1f3 (7. Bc4 Nd5 8.
N1f3 Bg7 9. O-O O-O 10. Re1 N7f6 11. Ne5! Ne8 12. Ngf3 <in both cases, white's initiative is quite dangerous.>) 7... Bg7 8. Qe2 O-O 9.
h4 h5 10. Ne5! Nxe5 11. dxe5 Nd5 12. e6)
(6... c5 7. N1f3 cxd4 (7... Qb6 8.
Ne5! Nxe5 9. dxe5 Ng4 10. Qe2 <and e5-6 is threatended.>) 8. O-O h6?! 9. Ne6! Qb6 10. Re1 Nc5 11. Nxc5 Qxc5 12. Nxd4 a6 13. c3 e6 14. Bf4 Be7 15. Bc2 Bd7
16. Nf5 Bc6 17. Re5 Qb6 18. Nxg7+ Kf8 19. Nf5 exf5? (19... Rd8 <is the correct move.>) 20. Rxe7! Nd5 21. Rxf7+! Kxf7 22. Qh5+ <tseshkovsky-khalifman, tashkent 1987.>) <this variation is also "unhealthy" for black.> <7. N1f3 Bd6 8. Qe2> <preparing 0-0-0
and taking control of the e5-square, preventing the freeing of the Bc8 by e6-5.> (8. O-O h6 9. Ne4 Nxe4 10. Bxe4 O-O <is another plan.>) <8... h6 9. Ne4 Nxe4
10. Qxe4 Nf6> (10... c5 11. Bd2 Nf6 12. Bb5+ Bd7 13. Qxb7 Rb8 14. Bxd7+ Nxd7 15.
Qa6 <with a small, but lasting advantage. psakhis-meduna, trnava 1988.>) <11.Qe2> <keeping control of e5.> (11. Qh4 Nd5 12. Qxd8+ Kxd8 13. c3 Ke7 <and it is easier for black to defend in the endgame.>) |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: filler |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: btw, i will post more analysis and notes when we figure out in which direction we want to take the game. i think we've seen a strong case in favor of 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bd3, but there is also plenty of analysis for 6.Bc4, so stay tuned. ;-) |
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Sep-09-06 | | square dance: *dont look!* |
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Sep-09-06
 | | Phony Benoni: <square dance> I think it's a good point that, if we're going to play Ng5 at some point, it makes sense to do so immediately. |
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Sep-09-06
 | | Phony Benoni: Don't ask, don't tell. |
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Sep-09-06 | | suenteus po 147: <Phony Benoni> & <square dance> I have to agree with the analysis that both of you have presented. <Phony Benoni> I too have seen that if we play either 5.Bc4 or 5.Nf3 we will most likely end up transposing into mainlines that are solid for both sides but unclear as to how to continue effectively. The on saving grace about an immediate 5.Ng5 is that indicates a clear plan of advancement by white and lets us dictate the course of the game well into the middle game. I especially like the variations <square dance> presented with the 6.Bd3 follow up, as well as games I have seen with 6.Bd3. So my vote is for 5.Ng5 with a 6.Bd3 follow up and then we can start pouring over the analysis that <square dance> has to post on these lines. |
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Sep-09-06 | | suenteus po 147: *filler* |
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