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The Chessgames.com Challenge
Dancing Rook
THE WORLD WINS
The World vs Gert Jan Timmerman
C U R R E N T   P O S I T I O N

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   Chessgames Challenge
Can a group of chess amateurs team up to beat a grandmaster?  Find out in the Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members on this page.

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[G.J. Timmerman]

[flip board] GAME OVER: 1-0 [flip board]

MOVES:
1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.c4 Bg7 5.Nc3 O-O 6.Nf3 d6 7.O-O c6 8.Qb3 Na6 9.Rd1 Kh8 10.Qa3 Nc7 11.d5 Bd7 12.Rb1 a5 13.dxc6 bxc6 14.c5 Ne4 15.cxd6 exd6 16.Bf4 d5 17.Be5 Re8 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7 19.Rbc1 Qe7 20.Qxe7+ Rxe7 21.Na4 Nb5 22.Nb6 Ra6 23.Nxd7 Rxd7 24.Ne5 Rd6 25.f3 Nf6 26.a4 Nc7 27.Bf1 Re6 28.f4 Ne4 29.e3 Rb6 30.Bd3 Na6 31.b4 Nxb4 32.Bxe4 fxe4 33.Nd7 Rb7 34.Nc5 Ree7 35.Nxb7 Rxb7 36.g4 Rc7 37.Rc5 Ra7 38.h4 Ra6 39.Rcc1 Kf6 40.Rf1 Nd3 41.Rb1 h5 42.gxh5 gxh5 43.Rb8 c5 44.Rfb1 d4 45.Kf1 dxe3 46.Rf8+ Ke7 47.Rbb8 Rg6 48.Rbe8+ Kd6 49.Rxe4 Kd5 50.f5 Rg3 51.Rfe8 c4 52.f6 Rf3+ 53.Ke2 Rxf6 54.Kxe3 Rc6 55.Rd4+ Kc5 56.Rb8 Re6+ 57.Re4 Rxe4+ 58.Kxe4 Nf2+ 59.Kf3 Ng4 60.Rb5+ Kd4 61.Rxh5 c3 62.Ke2 1-0
GAME OVER thank you for playingit is now 03:25:31
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 783 OF 1784 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <Judah, al wazir: isolani>

Etymology:
Insula (Latin), isola (It.), isle (Old Fr.), ile (French), Insel (Germ.)= isle or island. Rel.: isolate, isolated; isoler (French), isolieren (Germ.)

Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <Judah, al wazir: isolani (2)>

It could be that Aron Nimzowitsch coined this term.
It could be that he took it from history, having in mind a commander out of the Thirty Years` War: Johann Ludwig Hektor Graf von Isolani (or Isolano), who was a very bold, aggressive and deredevil horseman - like an isolated pawn marching along.

Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <kwid: ...long range planning to get the black isolani on a5>

If we win this game by capturing the isolated pawn a5, it will be a late triumph for all who voted 12.Rb1 provoking Black to play a5.

Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <Judah, al wazir: isolani (3)>

Isolani is also a major character in Schiller's play: Wallenstein. Since Nimzowitsch lived a long time in Germany (and Wallenstein was a play often staged) he probably was well acquainted with this figure.

End of message.

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  rinus: <edda zeitz> <late triumph>, another thesis:

If we win this game by capturing the isolated pawn a5, there will be <no drama> for all who voted 12.Rb1 provoking Black to play a5.

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kb2ct: yskid is a longtime chess friend and a member of the WT where he was known as Sker
Nov-14-07  pacorrum: <rinus: If we win this game by capturing the isolated pawn a5, there will be <no drama> for all who voted 12.Rb1 provoking Black to play a5> <12.Rb1> has already led us to this position, since it has 'prevented' GMT from playing 16. ... Nxc3 due to the later exchange sac at b5.
Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kb2ct: Rybka knew it was in trouble and went into a deep think.

It found the answer after only 36 hours. I don't think a human could


click for larger view

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3 Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7 19. Rbc1 Qe7 20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. Na4 Rb8 22. b3 Nb5 23. e3 g5 24. Ne1 g4 25. Nd3 Nbd6 26. h3 h5 27. Nac5 Nxc5 28. Rxc5 Nb7 29. Rc2 gxh3 30. Bxh3 Rh8 31. Bg2 h4 32. gxh4 Rxh4 33. f4 Rxe3 34. Ne5 Be8 35. Nxc6 Rxf4 36. Rxd5 Kf6 37. Nxa5 Bf7 38. Nxb7 Re1+ 39. Kh2 Rh4+ 40. Kg3 Rg4+ 41. Kf2 Rxg2+ 42. Kxg2 Bxd5+ 43. Kf2 Rh1 44. Rc7

Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <kb2ct>

What do you want to demonstrate or prove with this game?

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kb2ct: <edda zeitz: <kb2ct>

What do you want to demonstrate or prove with this game?>

I guess it proves that I can't always out think Rybka at high ply

:0)

btw, the reason chess engines answer Be5 with Re8 is purely low ply prejudice

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3 Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Bf6 18. Rbc1


click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit :

18...Ne6 19.Na4 Ra7 20.b3 Kg8 21.Qb2 N4g5 22.Bxf6 Nxf3+ 23.Bxf3 Qxf6 24.Qxf6 Rxf6 25.Nc5

≤ (0.34) Depth: 19 00:36:06 93214kN

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Nov-14-07 < Ceri > <trying to assess if we have made any progress towards winning the game or if we have only improved our "computer score".>

Hi Ceri, with you helping us "Chess Amateurs" we should be able to beat up any "Super GM" or the world best Correspondence Player. My main interest here is to be part in an evolution where our thought process is out calculated by computers which I predicted that it would not happen in my life time.

As to the game on hand I sence that he will try to set up a fortress type of position with enough space to defend his weak pawns on a5 and c6 successfully.

As I see it, he will have great difficulties with his a-pawn. If he tries to protect a5 we should get a position allowing us to advance our b-pawn which would give us an outside passer.
Against this threat I have not found a defence for him. cheers,kurt

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kb2ct: Bf6 next appears to lose a tempo and lets us get in 3 of the 4 blockade moves rather than just 2 because he probably has to move his king to g8

Not forced of course, but his queen likely ends up on f6 rather than e7

Nov-14-07  yskid: Hi,
I tried to figure out what sort of ideas might be lurking behind 17...Bf6 notion. I guess Black may be balancing between some dinamic Q-side defense simultaneously maintaining his K-side space supported with Ne4 and one of strategies involved would be developing the heavy pieces via rank-7&8 thus maintainig the flexibility. I did not quite see clear White plan to make progress, but here's the Team. My full pgn below. yskid

[Event "Chessgames Challenge"]
[Site "chessgames.com"]
[Date "2007.02.01"]
[Round "3"]
[White "The World 17...Bf6"]
[Black "Gert Jan Timmerman"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A88"]
[Annotator "yskid"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[EventDate "2007.??.??"]

1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. O-O c6 8. Qb3 Na6 9. Rd1 Kh8 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5 17. Be5 Bf6 18. Rbc1 Ne6 19. Na4 Ra7 (19... Kg8 20. Bxf6 Rxf6 21. Ne5) 20. Bxf6+ (20. Qe3 Rb7 21. Qh6 Qe7) 20... Qxf6 21. Nb6 (21. e3 g5 22. Ne1 g4 23. Nd3 Rb8 (23... N4g5) (23... Rd8 24. b3 (24. Nac5 N6xc5 25. Nxc5 Qf8 26. Bxe4 fxe4 27. Qc3+ Qg7 28. Nxd7)) 24. b3 Kg7 25. Qb2 (25. Nac5 N6xc5 26. Nxc5 Be8 27. Nd3 Ng5 28. Qc5 Rbb7 29. Nf4 Qe7 30. Qd4+ Qf6 31. Qa4 Qe7 ( 31... Rb4 $2 32. Nxd5) (31... Re7 32. Rc5 Ne4 33. Bxe4 (33. Rxa5 $5 Nc3 34. Rxa7 Nxa4 35. Rxa4 Qb2 $13 36. Bf1 Qc2 (36... Kf6) 37. Rd3 Bf7) 33... Rxe4 34. Qa3 a4 35. b4 (35. Ne2 Qe7 36. b4 Rb7 37. Nd4) 35... Rb7) 32. Ne2 Qb4 33. Qxb4 (33. Nc3 Ne4) 33... axb4 34. Rc2 (34. Nd4 Rxa2 35. Nxf5+ (35. Nxc6 Ne4) 35... Kf8 36. Nd6 Rb6 37. e4 Nxe4 $13 (37... dxe4 $6 38. Rc5) 38. Bxe4 dxe4 39. Nxe8 Kxe8 40. Re1 $11)) 25... Qxb2 26. Naxb2 Kf6) 21... Be8 22. b4 a4 (22... f4 23. g4 (23. bxa5 fxg3 24. fxg3 g5 25. Rf1 Raf7 26. a6 Qg7)) 23. b5 Rb7 24. Nxa4 Rxb5 Shredder 9: 1) 25. e3 (Shredder 9: 2) 25. Nc3 Rb8 26. e3 Bd7 27. Nd4 Nxd4 [%eval -11,17]) (Shredder 9: 3) 25. Nd2 Rb7 26. Qe3 Kg8 27. f4 g5 28. Nxe4 fxe4 29. fxg5 Qg6 30. Rf1 Rbf7 [%eval -14,17]) (Shredder 9: 4) 25. Ne1 f4 26. g4 Qh4 27. Nd3 Kg8 [%eval -20,17]) (Shredder 9: 5) 25. h4 Bd7 26. Ng5 N6xg5 27. hxg5 Nxg5 28. Nc5 Be8 29. Qe3 Ne4 30. a4 Rb2 31. Kf1 Ra2 32. Qd4 Nxc5 33. Rxc5 [%eval -59,17]) (Shredder 9: 6) 25. Rc2 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra6 27. Nb6 c5 28. Qb2 d4 29. Rd3 Nf4 30. gxf4 Rxb6 31. Rb3 [%eval -64,17]) ( Shredder 9: 7) 25. Rd3 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra7 27. Nc3 g5 28. e3 g4 29. Ne1 Nxc3 30. Rdxc3 Rxa2 31. Nd3 Ng5 32. R3c2 [%eval -58,16]) (Shredder 9: 8) 25. Bf1 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra7 27. Qb3 g5 28. a3 g4 29. Nd2 Nxd2 30. Rxd2 f4 31. Nb2 fxg3 32. Qxg3 c5 33. Bg2 Qh6 [%eval -62,16]) (Shredder 9: 9) 25. Qd3 Ra5 26. Nc3 Qg7 27. Nd2 Nxc3 28. Rxc3 Rxa2 29. e3 Bd7 30. Rb1 Ng5 31. Rc2 Ra1 [%eval -73,16]) ( Shredder 9: 10) 25. Re1 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra6 27. Nc3 Nxc3 28. Rxc3 Rxa2 29. Re3 Bf7 30. Qd6 f4 31. gxf4 Rc2 32. Nd4 [%eval -77,16]) (Shredder 9: 11) 25. Kf1 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra7 27. Qb3 g5 28. a3 g4 29. Nh4 f4 30. Bxe4 [%eval -80,16]) ( Shredder 9: 12) 25. h3 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra7 27. Qb3 g5 28. e3 f4 29. exf4 gxf4 30. g4 Rg8 31. a3 Re7 32. Nc3 N6g5 [%eval -86,16]) (Shredder 9: 13) 25. Rf1 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra6 27. Nc3 c5 28. Qb7 Nxc3 29. Rxc3 Rxa2 30. Qxd5 Rxe2 31. Qd3 Re4 [%eval -91,16]) (Shredder 9: 14) 25. Bh3 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra6 27. Nc3 Nxc3 28. Rxc3 Rxa2 29. Re3 Kg8 30. Kg2 Rf7 31. Qd6 Bd7 32. Qb8+ [%eval -93,16]) ( Shredder 9: 15) 25. Bh1 Ra5 26. Qb4 Ra6 27. Nc3 c5 28. Qb7 Nxc3 29. Rxc3 Rxa2 30. Qxd5 Rxe2 31. Qd3 Ba4 32. Qxe2 [%eval -96,16]) (Shredder 9: 16) 25. Qe3 f4 26. Qd3 fxg3 27. hxg3 Ra5 28. Nc3 Nxc3 29. Rxc3 Rxa2 30. Rc2 Rxc2 31. Qxc2 Bd7 32. Qc1 Kg8 [%eval -101,16]) 25... Ra5 26. Qb4 Rb5 27. Qa3 Ra5 28. Qb4 Rb5 29. Qa3 0.00/16 *

Nov-14-07  MindCtrol9: I have an idea that could lead to win this game if GMJT plays 17. ...Re8, and it's like this:

17. ...Re8 18.Nxe4 fxe4 19. Qc3 exf3 20. Bxg7+ Kg8 21. Bh8(now,if 21....Ne6 22. Bh3 ...?


click for larger view

/

If 17. ...Re8 18. Nxe4 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 ....? Now what he plays?


click for larger view

/

I have found a different way,too.

Nov-14-07  Waitaka: To Chessgames.com.

I have a suggestion to make. I believe its easy to implement, and will be very useful, not only on this game but all over this site.

Can you write a code that everytime someone post a PGN (even if it is not on the database), the site automaticaly recognize it as a PGN and provide a link to the posted game using a chess viewer? The inteliggence is similar to the fen interpreter, as we can post a fen and the site automatically recognizes it.

Nov-14-07  MindCtrol9: I think 17. ...Bf6 is not good enough 18. Qd6 NxN(example) 19. bxc3...?


click for larger view

/

Nov-14-07  Hugin: Toga II 1.3.1 - Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit [A88] 120/40 + 60/20 + 30 Standard game

1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 g6 4.c4 Bg7 5.Nc3 0-0 6.Nf3 d6 7.0-0 c6 8.Qb3 Na6 9.Rd1 Kh8 10.Qa3 Nc7 11.d5 Bd7 12.Rb1 a5 13.dxc6 bxc6 14.c5 Ne4 15.cxd6 exd6 16.Bf4 d5 17.Be5 Bf6** 18.Rbc1 Ne6 19.b3 wants to fight for the a1- h8 diagonal. Kg8 20.Bxf6 Qxf6 21.Na4 Rab8 22.e3 Rb5 23.Qb2 Qxb2 24.Nxb2 Rc8 25.Ne5!


click for larger view

Force black bishop almost out of play.. Be8 26.Na4 Kg7 27.f4! (Secures the important outpost Ne5)...... Kf6 28.Bxe4 get's rid of a annoying knight.. fxe4 29.Rd2 Rb4 30.h4 Starts action on Kingside..


click for larger view

Ke7 31.Kg2 Rc7 32.Nb2 Rb5 33.Rdc2 Kd6 34.Na4 Ng7 35.Rd2 Nf5 36.g4! !Nxh4+ 37.Kg3 g5 38.Nc3 Rb4 39.a3 Rxb3 40.Nxe4+ Ke7 41.Nxg5 Ng6 42.Nef3 h6 43.Ne6 Rc8 44.Ned4! 1541: Toga II 1.3.1 - Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit, Hewlett-Packard, 120'/40+60'/20+30'


click for larger view

Rxa3 45.Rh1! Bd7 46.Rxh6 Nf8 47.Kf2 a4 48.Ne5 Rc3 49.g5 a3 50.f5 c5 51.Ne2 Rb3 52.Nxd7 Nxd7 53.Rxd5 Nf8 54.Ra6 Rb7 55.e4 Nd7 56.Rxa3 c4 57.Rh3 Nf8 58.e5 Kf7 59.e6+ Kg8


click for larger view

White wins 1-0
Toga 11 1.3.1 crushed Rybka 2.3.2a mp in this standard time game and the most important part was in my eyes the following.

*18.Rbc1 Ne6 19.b3 wants to fight for the a1- h8 diagonal. Kg8 20.Bxf6 Qxf6 21.Na4 Rab8 22.e3 Rb5 23.Qb2 Qxb2 24.Nxb2 Rc8 25.Ne5! *

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Nov-14-07 <edda zeitz: <kb2ct> What do you want to demonstrate or prove with this game?>

It clearly shows that without a proper position assessment leading to well defined aims and ways to exploit identified weaknesses and strength the outcome of this game will be a draw. Below are two sample positions derived from the lines posted by kbct's rybka do reflect the outcome which GJT is planning for.


click for larger view


click for larger view

Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <yskid>

It would be nice if you could add a short summary/evaluation of the outcome when you post a game with roughly 40 lines and more than 200 moves.

Nov-14-07  Hugin: There is too many forums with 17.Be5 Re8** And to little focus and own forum on 17.Be5 Bf6** I say this because it might very well happen Timmerman plays 17 Be5 Bf6****. Would really be sad if the team failed to focus on 17 Be5 Bf6 a bit more.
Nov-14-07  yskid: edda zeitz
"short summary/evaluation of the outcome" is preceeding the PGN posted. I tend to be very general based on still rather superficial analysis as one I posted. yskid
Nov-14-07  edda zeitz: <kwid: It clearly shows that without a proper position assessment leading to well defined aims and ways to exploit identified weaknesses and strength the outcome of this game will be a draw.>

That's ok!
Going through the masses of posted games and shorter analyses of the last week and trying to condense them to a strategic core I think we have 3 key questions to answer:

1)Should we (assuming Black plays 17. Re8 18. Bxg7+ Kxg7) continue with 19.Nd4 or with Rbc1 (assuming e3 to be weaker)?

2)Should we keep our LSB on g2 or should we exchange him? Is he weak or is he strong? (I tend to think we should keep him.)

3) Should we exchange Qs or should we keep our Q?

Nov-14-07  g.mueller: < Nov-12-07 kb2ct:
19. Rbc1 goes nowhere. Not quite as easy as 19. Nd4 Qe7 but nowhere 1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3 c6 8. Qb3 Kh8 9. Rd1 Na6 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. Rb1 a5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 d5

17. Be5 Re8
18. Bxg7+ Kxg7
19. Rbc1 Qe7
20. Qxe7+ Rxe7 21. Na4 Rb8 22. Nd4 Rb4 23. Bxe4 Rxa4 24. Bb1 Rb4 25. b3 Rb6 26. Rc5 a4 27. bxa4 Na6 28. Ra5 c5 29. Bd3 c4 30. Bc2 Nb4 31. e3 Nxc2 32. Nxc2 Rb2 33. Rc1 Rxa2 34. Nb4 Rd2 35. Rxd5 Rb2

36. Nc2?! Bxa4 37. Na3 Ra2 38. Nxc4 Rc7 39. Rd3 Rc5 40. Rdc3 Bc6>

Hi here a new analysis example with win for white:
36. Nd3!


click for larger view

36...cxd3 37. Rc7 d2 38. Rcxd7 Rxd7 39. Rxd7+ Kf6 40. Kf1 g5 41. a5 Ra2


click for larger view

42. Ke2 Rxa5 43. Rxh7 Rd5 44. Kd1


click for larger view

44...Rd8 45. h3 Rd3 46. g4 f4 47. exf4 gxf4 48. Rh5 Ke6 49. Rh8 Ke5 50. Re8+ Kf6 51. Rf8+ Ke5 52. h4 Rh3


click for larger view

53. Re8+ Kd4 54. Kxd2 Rxh4 55. f3 Rh2+ 56. Ke1 Kd5 57. Re4 Rb2 58. Rxf4 + M33 1-0

MfG
GŁnter

Nov-14-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  kwid: Nov-14-07
< Hugin >
< 27.f4! (Secures the important outpost Ne5)...... Kf6 28.Bxe4 get's rid of a annoying knight.. fxe4 29.Rd2 Rb4 30.h4 Starts action on Kingside..>

Good work! But,at move 29. what is our objective with the king side actions? It seems premature unless you belief we can steam roll him as shown by you. But I am not convinced that we can wring out to extra pawns for us in this position.


click for larger view

If I were black I would try to take advantage of the e5-knight position which can be exploited with f4 and later d4 because the knight is hanging. For example why not f4 now in reply to Rd2?


click for larger view

29...g5 30. Ng4+ Kg6 31. Rf2 gxf4 32.gxf4 Kg7 33. Ne5 Kf6 34. Rg2 Kf5 35. Rg8 Rd8 36. Nc3 Rb4 37. Ne2 Kf6 38. Ng4+ Ke7 39. Rh8 Bg6 40. Rxd8 Nxd8 41. Nd4 Kd6 42. a4 Rb7 43. Kf2 Be8 44. Nf5+ Ke6


click for larger view

If we can not improve on the line shown above we get into a position which may hold for him. Let's go back to the drawing board to hopefully find a better way at move 29 to increase our apparent obvious advantage in this position.

Nov-14-07  Boomie: <MindCtrol9: I think 17. ...Bf6 is not good enough 18. Qd6 NxN>

18...Nxd6 is a bit stronger.

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