< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Aug-09-04|| ||ray keene: after 10...kg6 i am sure white is doing really well even if he plays quietly-he has two pawns for his piece-free development and blacks king is running aroUnd-alekhine wd have won this for sure. re greek gift<hailMorphy> its from virgils aeneid -laocoon the priest is trying to dissuade the trojans from taking in the horse and he says"timeo danaos et dona ferentes" meaning-i fear the greeks even bearing gifts. its usually a bishop that is sacrificed in the greek gift and on h7 so its a bit hard cALLING IT A TROJAN HORSE which WD IMPLY A KNIGHT SAC. HOPE THAT CLEARS UP THE QUESTION. |
|Aug-09-04|| ||ray keene: pls ignore random use of caps in last post-its early here and i have not had my first cup of tea which means i am essentially half blind |
|Aug-09-04|| ||AdrianP: <Ray> It was speculated here: M Pestalozzi vs H Duhm, 1908 that the phrase 'Greek gift' might also be partially derived from Greco's treatment of this sacrifice... any thoughts? |
|Aug-09-04|| ||kevin86: The term,Greek gift,is an oxymoron. It may be the oldest ethnic rib of all time.I don't want to get "in dutch" so I'll end here. |
|Aug-09-04|| ||ray keene: i am pretty sure it has nothing to do with greco-virgil is more likely |
|Aug-09-04|| ||Gypsy: Bxf7+ is called "greek gift" primarily because the sacrifice first appears in manuscripts of <Gioachino Greco>. The Trojan War reference is a clever, but secondary reference. |
|Aug-09-04|| ||ray keene: <gypsy> i have never ever heard of the sacrifice bxf7+ being referred to as a greek gift. it is always bxh7+ followed by ng5+. |
i am not saying you are wrong but can you indicate some hard evidence for your view apart from a brief and tentative suggestion in the oxford companion?
in fact an interesting question is raised-when was the term greek gift first used-the oxford companion is inconsistent in its explanation saying that it refers specifically to bxh7+ and that it probably stems from grecos games rather then the classical reference. however-altho incursions on f7 and f2 occur left right and centre-as it were- in grecos play i can only find one instance of a bxh7 sacrifice
so we have a contradiction
it seems to be agreed that it is bxh7 which defines the greek gift not bxf7
however bxf7 crops up all over the place in greco while there is only one example of bxh7
the oxford companion speculates that the link between bxh7 and greco is what caused the name greek gift but they give no evidence-but surely given the frequency if something was going to be named after greco it should be bxf7.
no-my guess and i stress its just a guess till someone comes up with the evidence is that greek gift was a classically inspired note straight out of virgil
|Aug-09-04|| ||Gypsy: My apology <ray> I did intend to type Bxh7+ -- that, followed by Ng5+ or Qh4+, is what I know as greek gift. |
|Aug-10-04|| ||LuckyFish: In his book, The Art of Chess Combination, Znosko-Borovsky devotes over half the text to the Bxh7 sac. In most cases, black's only hope, albeit a very slim one, is in Kg6. White's best is usually Qg4; the threatened discovered check should win. I believe that is the case here.|
After 10...Kg6 11.Qg4, d6 or d5, White mates quickly with Ne6+.
if 11...f5 or Nxe5, White should maintain the threat with Qg3. (if then Bxf2+, then 13.Kxf2.)
if 11...Rxe5+ then 12. Nce4.
Note that if White takes on e5 with the f pawn, Black survives with Qxg5.
After reading this, it sounds a little pompous. This is not the intention, please forgive.
|Aug-10-04|| ||misguidedaggression: 10...Kg6 11.Qg4 f5 12.Qg3 Nxe5! 13.Ne6+ Ng4! And Black is winning! (computer analysis: -2.81) Lovewell would have never found this line though. |
|Aug-10-04|| ||LuckyFish: <misguidedaggression> My apologies for not having any chess software. What says your machine to 10...Kg6 11.Qg4 f5 12.Qg3 Nxe5 13.0-0-0|
if 13...Ng4 14.Rd2 seems necessary, seemingly losing some initiative. If Black elects to exchange Bishop and Knight for Rook and Pawn, White's deficit is reduced to just an exchange, and black's king is still somewhat exposed.
|Aug-10-04|| ||misguidedaggression: To be honest My software is old and so is my machine: CM7000 running on a 1.6 GHz pentium 4. But it's still enough to consistantly beat me. This is the first time I've used it for game analysis. |
After 7 minutes it found a perpetual: 13...Ng4 14.Rd2 Be7 15.h3 Bg5 16.hxg4 Be7 17.gxf5+ Kf7 18.Qg6+ Kg8 19.Qh7+ Kf7 Otherwise White is losing by about -0.59
Usually, I don't use the computer either, but I had a gut feeling that my 10...Kg6 followed by ...f5 was a sound defence and didn't know how to prove it.
|Aug-10-04|| ||LuckyFish: <misguidedaggression> instead of 19.Qh7+, I like Rd3, to be followed by doubling on the h file. |
|Aug-10-04|| ||LuckyFish: Also, I erred in thinking that black could exchange B and N for R and P. If 15...Bxf2 16 Rxf2 and black cannot take the rook without losing his queen to Ne6+. He could take both rooks though, if he doesn't get his knight trapped or his king mated. |
|Aug-10-04|| ||misguidedaggression: <19.Rd3> It looks like we have a winner! I should have checked the computer analysis, but It was late and I was tired. There's probably something in the middle of that line that's better, I was getting about +8.5 before the program crashed. (I said it was old.)|
19.Rd3 Bh4 20.f6 Qxf6 (Bxf6 is probably best met by Rdh3) 21.Qxe8+ Qf8 22.Qxf8+ Kxf8 23.Rxh4
And Black is a rook and pawn down with his 2 remaining pieces hemmed in. This is why I don't like to trust computer analysis. :)
|Aug-10-04|| ||Gypsy: <After reading this, it sounds a little pompous. This is not the intention, please forgive.> Since I at times feel similarly about my own posts <LuckyFish>, let me assure you that your contributions here are absolutely within the bounds of good taste. Thank you for puting up variations, assessments, and good advice! (I personaly also value the glimpse into your thinking process.) |
|Aug-10-04|| ||AdrianP: <Gypsy> <Ray Keene> Here is the only example of a Bxh7+ sacrifice in the Greco games on the database (which I assume to be complete)|
Greco vs NN, 1620
|Aug-10-04|| ||misguidedaggression: Don't worry about sounding pompous, guys, you could be a lot worse: User Profile: CrackerSmack|
Unfortunately, It seems he's starting to tone it down a little, though. I guess constant American bashing gets old after a while. :)
|Aug-10-04|| ||Gypsy: <LuckyFish> <misguidedaggression> Thanks for the nice analysis guys. |
|Aug-10-04|| ||misguidedaggression: Well, it's mostly to satisfy our own curiosity, but it's nice to know that someone appreciates the work (even though all I did was plug the position into a second rate computer). |
|Feb-09-07|| ||Armakov: I have found the Englund Gambit to be quite playable after using Fritz 10 at 14 ply to develope a working system with it. The following is a critical line : 1. d4 e5 2. dxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 f6 (d6, Nge7 or Qe7 is usually played here, but exchanging the f pawn allows for quicker, more accurate development after 4. exf6 Nxf6.) 4. exf6 Nxf6 (White attempting to add pressure here with 4. f4 or 4. Bf4 is bad.) 5. Bg5 d5 (A strong move for black, confirming the f pawn exchange.) 6. e3 Be7 7. Nc3 Be6 8. a3 0-0 9. Qd3 Qd6 10. 0-0-0 (Fritz chose to castle queenside, probably because of black's open f file.) Ng4 11. Bxe7 Nxe7 12. Rd2 Qd6 13. h3 Nf6 14. e4 Qf4 15. exd5 Nexd5 16. Qd4 Rae8 17. Qxf4 Nxf4 18. Ng5 Bd5 19. Rd4 Re5 20. Rxf4 Rxg5 21. Nxd5 Nxd5 22. Rxf8+ Kxf8 23. g3 Re5 24. Bg2 c6 25. Bxd5 Rxd5 26. Rd1...Obviously, white is trading down because of the pawn advantage, but with careful play by black, the game ends as a draw. I would like to add that Fritz 10 has proven itself to be a formidable opponent at top level play, defeating the reigning world champion Vladimir Kramnik 4:2. With faster PC's utilizing such beasts as the dual processor, accompanied by strong chess programs like Fritz 10, many openings that were once considered dubious are proving to be quite playable.|
|Jul-18-11|| ||DrMAL: After 10...Kg6 and trying to play out best options one would think 11.Qd3+ wins and deeper evaluation shows it does (lines truncated):|
Houdini_15a_x64: 25/83 3:37:37 56,691,160,196
+3.80 11.Qd3+ f5 12.h4 Rf8 13.0-0-0 Kh6 14.Qg3
+2.05 11.h4 Nxe5 12.fxe5 Rxe5+ 13.Kf1 d6 14.Qd3+
|Jul-18-11|| ||BobCrisp: <Alekhine> was the most demotic of world champions. The sheer variety of chessplayers he encountered, under all conditions, on every continent, for nigh on four decades.|
|Jun-09-15|| ||TheFocus: From a blindfold simultaneous exhibition in Providence, Massachusetts on December 15, 1923 at the Providence Chess Club.|
Alekhine scored +25=3-0.
See <Brooklyn Daily Eagle>, December 20, 1923, pg. 3A.
|Jun-09-15|| ||TheFocus: Oops, Alekhine was blindfold, but this was not a blindfold exhibition.|
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