< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jan-02-08|| ||whiteshark: Congratulations on your new member of the family, <UdayanOwen>!!! I hope all is well and as fit as a fiddle !!|
|Jan-02-08|| ||parmetd: Ng5! black has no response g6 staves off mate a little longer|
|Jan-02-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <zb2cr: Congratulations on the birth of your daughter Summer.
More candidates for analysis--a few have opined that even after losing Queen for Rook and Knight, that Black could put up a fight. (See posts by <Pictura>, <dzechiel>, et al. See also analysis by <Crafty> that after 24. ... g6; 25. Rae1 is best.)>|
Thanks for the good wishes mate (and same to <Johnlspouge> and <whiteshark>, and in advance, any other people who end up posting such messages, appreciations...) I am over the moon, Summer is happy and an easy baby, my wife is healthy and my two toddlers are very happy about the new arrival so it's all good...
As for the chess, I did read all these things after posting.....
Happy to concede that in the 24...g6 line that 25.Rae1 is more clearly winning than 25.Rg7+.
I'm not sold however on the idea that black is OK after 25.Rg7+ Kxg7 26.Ne6+ Kg8 27.Nxd8 Rfxd8.
White has more power on the board, and black's king is very open. The black queenside pawns have significant weakness. The a6 pawn is very weak, and a white plan may involve trying to win it, which will leave the b pawn weak, and potentially allow a white passed a-pawn. Under some circumstances, the d pawn could also become a liability. Black is also weak on the dark squares, h6 and a5 in particular being strong entry points to put pressure on either the king or the queenside pawns. The weak kingside could also be further exploited with the plan of h3-h4-h5.
Black doesn't have much compensation for all this... his main hope is to create a passer on the queenside... the d4 pawn might be a target in some variations, but that's about it.
As white I'd probably just activate my rook with 28.Re1. Since the challenge 28...Re8 loses a pawn (29.Rxe8 Rxe8 30.dxc5), I'll have options to go to e6 (hitting a6), or e7 (and in the latter case, combine this with Qd2-h6, pressuring the king, and/or h3-h4-h5). Bad things will happen to black if he tries to stop the rook infiltration with a king move (if anyone doubts it, I'll explain in another post).
28...cxd4 is not a worry because after 29.Qd2, the pawn can't be held. White may even be able to ignore the recapture temporarily to pursue active plans, when the maneuverable queen is likely to get back easily to grab it at the right time if need be. Note the queen is beautifully placed on d2 eyeing both a5 and h6.
If now 29...Re8 to stop the white rook getting in and doing damage, things are easy for white after 30.Rxe8 Rxe8 31.Qxd4. The nimble white queen will have too much play against all the weak queenside pawns, and the three black pieces, which will have to co-ordinate to ensure their own survival rather than defending the queenside or pursuing active plans.
After my suggested 28.Re1, there is not much else useful black can do apart from 28...c4. It's true that a white piece needs to babysit this pawn, but I think white should be able to organise the king to do this job, freeing up the white pieces to attack. I don't think the structure allows black to generate enough activity to trouble the king sitting on d1, for example. Nor does the structure support the other black pieces easily assisting the c8 rook with the advance of the c-pawn.
Look, all this is pretty schematic stuff, so someone might plug the position after 27...Rfxd8 or 28.Re1 into an engine and find some interesting concrete possibilities that I'm overlooking. In fact, the engines might even bust my theory that white is doing extremely well. I'd be very interested to see what the engines have to say about the black chances, since I think it is a position the computers should be well suited to analyzing. I reckon black is going to struggle badly.
|Jan-02-08|| ||zenpharaohs: We might as well have Rybka 2.3.2a chime in after 24 Ng5 g6:|
25 Rae1 Nf6
26 dxc5 Rc6
27 Qd2 Re8
28 Rxe8+ Nxe8
29 Qf4 Qd7
30 Nxh7 Qf7
31 Qxf7+ Kxf7
value +2.94 after 22 ply.
25 Qe2 Rf6
26 Nxh7 Rf7
27 Rxf7 Kxf7
28 Qg4 Kg7
29 Ne5 Qe8
30 dxc5 Nxc5
31 Qd4+ Kh6
value +2.17 after 22 ply
25 Rg7+ Kxg7
26 Ne6+ Kf7
27 Nxd8+ Rfxd8
28 Qc1 c4
29 Qf4+ Nf6
30 g4 Kg7
31 g5 Nh5
value +1.93 after 21 ply
|Jan-02-08|| ||zanshin: <UdayanOwen: so someone might plug the position after 27...Rfxd8 or 28.Re1 into an engine and find some interesting concrete possibilities that I'm overlooking.> |
<UdayanOwen> If I followed your line of reasoning, you want an analysis of the position below. I think it confirms your analysis.
1: Robert James Fischer - Laszlo Barczay, Sousse izt Rd: 1 1967
click for larger view
Analysis by Fritz 10 (20-ply):
1. (3.59): 28.Re1 cxd4 29.Qd3 Nb8 30.Qxd4 Rd7 31.a3 Nc6 32.Qf6 Rdc7 33.Qe6+ Kg7 34.Qxd5 Rd8 35.Qg5
2. (3.24): 28.Qc3 cxd4 29.Qxd4 Nf8 30.Re1 Rd7 31.Re5 Rc2 32.a3 Ra2 33.Rxd5 Rf7 34.Qc5 Rb2 35.Rd8 Rb1+
3. (3.05): 28.Qd2 Nf6 29.Re1 c4 30.Re7 Re8 31.Qb4 cxb3 32.axb3 Rxe7 33.Qxe7 Rc1+ 34.Kh2 Rc6 35.f3 h6 36.Kg1 g5 37.g3
|Jan-02-08|| ||YouRang: Got it pretty quick, although I can't say I worked out ALL the possibilities as thoroughly as some people.|
But 24. Ng5 was a pretty obvious try, as it threatens immediate mate, and any attempt to avoid mate (e.g. ...Nf6 or ...g6) is met with the rook decoying the king into at queen-winning knight fork Ne6+.
|Jan-02-08|| ||kevin86: Three sacrificial moves are possible: 24 xh7+,24 xg7+,and 24 g5 leaving the rook en prise.|
As the first two can be taken with little penalty,and taking the rook in the last leads to a mate in one-the third is the obvious choice. AND,it works!
|Jan-02-08|| ||Justawoodpusher: Saw all the combinations but I was not sure if this is really the solution to the puzzle.
25 Rg7+ Kxg7
26 Ne6+ Kf7
27 Nxd8+ Rfxd8
I probably would not resign as black, at least not on my level of playing.
|Jan-02-08|| ||zenpharaohs: The resignation might be early, but consider that you are playing Bobby Fischer in 1967 and you just gave him +3.0 for nothing. This is a bleak situation.|
I probably wouldn't have resigned OTB either, but that's because I am not strong enough OTB to figure that out until a few moves later.
|Jan-02-08|| ||Civhai: Didn't take me too long today.|
|Jan-02-08|| ||DarthStapler: I figured it out but I only looked at g6 and Nf6 as defenses|
|Jan-02-08|| ||Pudvein: The star move of this game is the electrifying 22. Ba5!!|
I agree that Ba5 was a great move as Ng5 seemed obvious.
|Jan-02-08|| ||TrueBlue: ok, got Ng5, but it took me 3-4 minutes, still trying to recover from New Year :( Need more sleep!|
|Jan-02-08|| ||Sularus: Got it too!
Ba5 is indeed a good move but I'd just give it one exclamation point.
|Jan-02-08|| ||Shams: 22.Ba5-- not to sound like a fogie but exclams aren't what they used to be. A decoy move to trade bishops and get a rook on the 7th-- yeah it's a nice move, but come on people. such shots should occur to us by now!|
|Jan-02-08|| ||vibes43: Again it took me a while to settle on the solution after earlier discounting Ng5. This week I should be spending more time evaluating my first instinct. Good puzzle.|
<black knight c6: I wish there was a seperate forum for the puzzles.> We of lesser skills outnumber the elete. I enjoy postings from both sides. Why complicate matters with two forums?
|Jan-02-08|| ||Terry McCracken: <zenpharaohs: We might as well have Rybka 2.3.2a chime in after 24 Ng5 g6:
I agree, after 24..g6 25. Rae1 is better than sacking the Rook for the Night fork .
24. Ng5 was the easy part.
|Jan-02-08|| ||xrt999: <uday I'm not sold however on the idea that black is OK after 25.Rg7+ Kxg7 26.Ne6+ Kg8 27.Nxd8 Rfxd8>|
Uday, after 26.Ne6+, why would you have the black king retreat to a back rank square of g8, instead of centralized on f7?
|Jan-03-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <xrt999: <uday I'm not sold however on the idea that black is OK after 25.Rg7+ Kxg7 26.Ne6+ Kg8 27.Nxd8 Rfxd8>|
Uday, after 26.Ne6+, why would you have the black king retreat to a back rank square of g8, instead of centralized on f7?>
The simple answer is that the king is less exposed on g8 and guards h7. As a general principal centralising the king is not logical in these conditions because heavy pieces for white are still on the board.
I could expand on this by giving some concrete examples of how I felt white could exploit the opne king and the weakness of h7, but I don't have time.
The computer analyses suggesting Kf7 was better suggest concrete factors I didn't consider may have made the exception to the general principal best here.
However, whether I was right or wrong, the reasons given here are the basic outline of the rationale for my choice Kg8.
|Jan-03-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <Shams: 22.Ba5-- not to sound like a fogie but exclams aren't what they used to be. A decoy move to trade bishops and get a rook on the 7th-- yeah it's a nice move, but come on people. such shots should occur to us by now!>|
Agreed. The move was important, in that by the use of some fairly uncomplicated tactics it allowed Fishcer to make some important strategical gains. I don't think it is deserving of an exclamation mark.
|Jan-03-08|| ||UdayanOwen: On the issue of my last post....
Despite what I just said, the move is quite creative and elegant though (even if not amazing). So I see why people like the move... I like it too for these reasons.
|Jan-04-08|| ||xrt999: <uday: The simple answer is that the king is less exposed on g8 and guards h7. As a general principal centralising the king is not logical in these conditions because heavy pieces for white are still on the board. |
I could expand on this by giving some concrete examples of how I felt white could exploit the opne king and the weakness of h7, but I don't have time.>
I disagree, but thanks for responding to my question without trying to explain your rational.
Obviously centralizing the king is a case by case basis; individual tastes combined with calculations produce the move. As a beginner Im sure you are aware that centralizing the king in the endgame is a general tenet.
Since you dont "have time" I'll take a stab at explaining why Kh7 is superior to Kg8.
I feel blacks h and g pawns provide enough stability and protection to have black's king centralize to f7, where the benefit is 2-fold: black prophylaxes against the brutal entry of white's queen into black's space via Qf6 as in <zanshin>'s line, and also fortifies the e file. I will then try to double rooks on this file and play for a draw. This would be my goal with a R-R-Knight vs Q-R.
|Jan-04-08|| ||DukeAlba: This one took me a LONG time to solve. But in the end 24. Ng5 is unstoppable.|
|Jan-07-08|| ||UdayanOwen: <xrt999: (posting directed at UdayanOwen) As a beginner Im sure you are aware that centralizing the king in the endgame is a general tenet>.|
It is bizzare that you choose to refer to me as a beginner.
Do a kibitzing search with my username and have a good read of my analyses, which incorporate deep calculation (without moving the pieces or using a computer) and deep strategical analyses. For you to consider these could be written by a beginner is perplexing.
Just so you know, my playing strength is approximately 2000 and I recently notched my first OTB tournament win against a FIDE master (he made no blunders, I outplayed him). I also beat a grandmaster in a simultaneous display after only 2 years of competitive chessplay. Possible acheivements of a beginner? I think not.
It is true that centralizing the king in the endgame is a general principal, but I think with queen and rook on the board and an open king, this is more of a late middlegame than an endgame. In concrete analyses I undertook with king on f7, I found ways that white could exploit the weakness on h7, and in some cases use an attack on the f-file with the queen to gain tempo to achieve other gains. I simply didn't have time to post a concrete analysis, hence I gave the simple answer not the complex one. Note also that the two pawns shielding the king can be undermined with the plan h3-h4-h5.
I acknowledged in my response to your post that I may have been wrong in my choice of Kg8, but since you asked, I offered the best explanation of my rationale in the time I had available.
I'm really not sure why you are acting so disdainfully, first with your insult about me being a beginner, and more subtly, with your putting the words "have time" in quotation marks. This implies that you are taking a stab at me for not expanding upon my rationale for the choice Kg8.
|Jan-09-08|| ||Ulhumbrus: <black knight c6: Anyone know the thinking behind Nh4 and back again by fisher And why not 15. ... Bf5 supporting the knight rather than giving it away? And why did black choose to subjucate himself to e6 with Ne7, even if it needed reactivating? Does he have any better moves after white's 19th?>
11 Nh4 induces 11 ...exd4 before 12...Nb6, conceding space to White. After 12...Nb6 the square f5 is covered, so the N on h4 is placed better on f3.
On 15...Bf5 the N on e4 is attacked thre times but defended only twice.
19 b3 puts the N out of play by denying it the square c4; 19...Nb6-d7 looks like an attempt to make the N more useful.|
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