< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jan-25-09|| ||xrt999: Ok....here goes. 4th try.
I plugged this end position into my CM program: CM vs CM, and the game continues for 63 additional moves and ends in a draw.
|Jan-25-09|| ||stoy: If this is a win for white, how does it happen? I smell a flag fall.|
|Jan-25-09|| ||Ychromosome: Check out the white knight on f2 that enables castling.|
|Jan-25-09|| ||Gregor Samsa Mendel: To those who don't see how white can win this:
I'm no expert, but it seems that black's b-pawn is about to fall. After it's gone, white's king and minor pieces will gang up on the remaining black pawns. Then one or more white pawns march up and promote. The white pieces and pawns should be able to shield the king from perpetual check. All black can do is sit back and watch it happen.
|Jan-26-09|| ||ughaibu: It looks a clear enough win to me and the time control would probably have been at move 72, so I see no reason to doubt that Geller resigned.|
|Jan-26-09|| ||positionalgenius: its a win for white. truly magnificent game.|
|Jan-26-09|| ||M.D. Wilson: Why would Geller want to play on in a losing position? Hence the resignation.|
|Jan-27-09|| ||xrt999: This game is a draw!
(I mean, after the b-pawn falls that is. (thanks Gregor for pointing out this to all of us))
The black queen just continually harasses the white king and the game continues for 63 moves and ends in a 3 move draw on my CM. (63 moves of perfect 10 ply engine play)
This was my initial assumption, and I just proved it to myself for the second time. Wether or not Geller saw this drawish nature or not is not so much dependant on playing 63 perfect drawing moves as it is already having played 73 grueling moves against Boris Spassky. Although the year is 1959 and Geller is in his prime, how would you feel after not only 60 moves against Spassky, but 10 additional moves only to lose a pawn? Spassky played perfect.
Then to sit there and analyze wether or not you can draw....no one here can say. Geller probably did resign, and this wouldnt suprise me.
BUT....just run it through whatever engine du jour is popular and see for yourself, there is no clear win. This game is a draw.
|Jan-27-09|| ||xrt999: <Jan-19-04 ughaibu:> |
Hey, why dont you just think about what I said and come back in 5 years....sheesh....LOL!
|Jan-27-09|| ||I Like Fish: Why...
|Jan-28-09|| ||blacksburg: this is a pretty clear win for white, but your engines aren't going to show it to you.|
white wins the b pawn, then slowly advances all of his pieces and wins the g pawn, then the h pawn, then makes a queen. the black queen will not be able to stop it, and there will be no perpetual checks because white has a small army of 3 pieces to escort the king.
no way black will draw this. it might take 50+ moves for white to win, but he WILL win, the queen is no match for the 3 pieces here.
and in general, if geller and chessmaster disagree about something, i'm going to believe geller. i mean, this isn't deep rybka 10 we're talking about here, it's chessmaster.
|Jan-28-09|| ||ughaibu: Xrt999: do you want to try playing it out, on here?|
|Jan-28-09|| ||M.D. Wilson: I'll go with Geller's assessment of the position.|
|Jan-29-09|| ||xrt999: ughaibu, you arent due to post on this game until mid January, 2014. See you then. I mean, its great to see your chess skills have improved substantially in between the 5 years of your 2 posts. Always a pleasure reading your posts. |
Also, I already said Geller probably resigned, so why are you picking a fight with me? I never said I would win, lose, or draw this game---I said I plugged the end position into a computer and it drew. Go back and reread.
MD---please feel free to add something else to your statements, something to the effect of "because". What follows would be why you think something. Give it a try sometimes. Its not that difficult. Not that I dont enjoy your 1 line statements, though, because I really do.
I am going to nominate "white slowly marches his 3 minor pieces up the board and makes a queen" for post of the year. I mean, life is just so simple sometimes. You really just need to look past some things, like for example, your opponent possesses a queen and can deliver check on 25 different squares. (blacksburg would never ever play 50 moves with 3 minor pieces against a queen and allow himself to get one of those minor pieces forked, now would he?) Since it is so simple, and you are so convinced that white has an easy win, just play it out, and post your 50 moves here so we can all see for ourselves. Im sure you will get it on the first try. Oh, and let us know what type of program if any you play against, time controls, etc. TIA.
|Jan-30-09|| ||M.D. Wilson: Perhaps you have never heard of the saying "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all"? I'm really sorry that you have nothing else to occupy your time, xrt999. Before you chastise others, check your grammar first, because your post didn't have its intended effect.|
|Jan-30-09|| ||ughaibu: Xrt999: I'm not picking a fight with you, I was offering you the chance to convince me of your assessment. I take it that you've declined.|
|Jan-30-09|| ||xrt999: MD, I am not trying to offend you, I am just trying to have an intelligent discussion about this game; I made a comment and gave some "evidence" as to why I think this game could be a draw (and therefore Geller may have been short of time) and all you do is post a one-line assertion for the second time that Geller resigned.
I would like to see if anyone else thinks this is a draw and why. Im just asking you to give some type of evidence or theory as to why you are convinced Geller resigned. |
ughaibu, I am not an expert. This should probably be pretty clear to you, so why are you challenging me to show you Geller's clear draw? Yes, I decline your offer. I dont have anything to show you, other than several CM vs CM games which draw. Since CM does not have the the depth of other programs (thanks blacksburg for pointing out the obvious) I dont think me posting games consisting of 60 to 120 additional moves resulting in a draw would qualify as evidence, since I find CM usually is limited to a depth of 10 moves. It would help me if a more advanced player can show me some other more advanced engine vs engine with a win for white, or human vs engine, etc.
|Feb-12-09|| ||blacksburg: <I am going to nominate "white slowly marches his 3 minor pieces up the board and makes a queen" for post of the year. I mean, life is just so simple sometimes. You really just need to look past some things, like for example, your opponent possesses a queen and can deliver check on 25 different squares. (blacksburg would never ever play 50 moves with 3 minor pieces against a queen and allow himself to get one of those minor pieces forked, now would he?) Since it is so simple, and you are so convinced that white has an easy win, just play it out, and post your 50 moves here so we can all see for ourselves. Im sure you will get it on the first try. Oh, and let us know what type of program if any you play against, time controls, etc. TIA.>|
<xrt999> calm down, dude. you're basically just arguing with everyone here, people are trying to help you, and you're taking it personally. you're wrong, even Geller agrees that you're wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have resigned, and we were trying to help you, but noooo, you have to get all sarcastic and passive aggressive. hey guess what, i can do that too.
click for larger view
this position is also a win for white. do you need a 50 move variation to understand this one, too?
|Feb-12-09|| ||xrt999: blacksburg, whenever you can pry yourself away from your busy life and you debase yourself enough to give in and (yawn) toss off a measely win as white, please be so good as to post it here in ...sorry, was it 50 moves?...Oh, wait, I already asked you to do this, sorry for being so persistent and repetitive. Its just that I would be so humbled if you would do this one little thing for me...|
|Feb-12-09|| ||crwynn: This endgame is over as soon as White plays Nf5. Geller probably saw that and resigned.|
|Feb-13-09|| ||xrt999: I think the problem is that I need to upgrade my chess software. My patzer-like 10ply CM just isnt finding the win. So far, it has drawn 4 consecutive games as white: 63, 128, 72, and this AM an 54 additional moves. I have succesively increased the time constraints. If someone wants to plug the game into a deeper ply engine and could email me the winning moves I would appreciate it. |
All passive-agressiveness and inferred sarcasm aside, despite being a pathetic outdated 10ply engine, it still calculates around 200-300,000 positions per move in a Q vs B-B-P-P endgame (as in this latest try). When thinking about the fist move as black (move 75) it gives me 1,020,000 total possible moves that it considered. So, although my engine is weak by current standards, when a human says "white just marches his pieces up the board", no, this isnt what happens. This game is not a slam-dunk win for white.
Furthermore, posters are assuming Geller resigned, which I have already agreed with twice. But, it might have more to do with not wanting to continue a grueling 75 move game with Boris Spassky, rather than just sitting there and saying to yourself "based on theoretical play, white will win". After all, at move 59, the material is the same at move 75.
So, based on what I am reading from "experts" here, I have some lingering unanswered questions:
a)Geller thought he was still in the game with the b pawn at move 59? If he didnt think so, he would have resigned.
b)Since the pawn on b3 is NOW going to fall at move 75, the game is over? Geller played move 59 through 75 based on the b-pawn? Then he resigned, according to the "experts" here.
c)Why didnt Geller resign at move 59 then?
|Oct-16-10|| ||Garech: Superb game from Spassky - I'm recommending it for GOTD.|
|Oct-16-10|| ||Petrosianic: After such a glowing endorsement (great in a non-specific way), how could they refuse?|
|Dec-07-10|| ||bastiaan0740: I believe white has an uneasy but guaranteed win here.
For fun, I ran it crafty20 vs. crafty20; 10 sec/move. White won at move 179.|
|Dec-26-12|| ||The Last Straw: 54.h7! wins, e.g. 54...d7 55.f5+ e8 56.c8+ f7 57.f8#, 54...a4 55.f4+ e5 56.e1+ f6 57.e6+ f7 58.g6+ g8 59.e8#, or 54...f6 55.c6+ f7 56.g6+ g8 c8#.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·