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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
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| Oct-21-07 |
| consafo: isn't a queen versus a rook a draw? |
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| Oct-21-07 |
| cdm511: Thanks Gypsy. I had a temporary mental block, and thought that the black pawn was on c7, in which case it seems Rf5 would clearly be best. Thanks for the analysis anyway! |
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Oct-21-07
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| Gypsy: <consafo: isn't a queen versus a rook a draw?> No, Q wins. It can take up to s1 moves to collect the rook in some positions, but it should go a bit faster here. RV's Rybka finds forced checkmate in 40 moves. |
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Oct-21-07
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| MostlyAverageJoe: <consafo: isn't a queen versus a rook a draw?> Nope. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnle... |
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Oct-21-07
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| MostlyAverageJoe: <znprdx: Why not bring Chess into the 21st Century? - it is still the world's best 2-player game: White vs. Black, yet which could be played by teams!! [perhaps even with the concept of simultaneous play – while respecting basic rules - not inventing new ones]. Anybody interested in stepping outside of the box?<MAJ?>> Please clarify the direction you envision once outside the box :-) Team chess games with computers have been done already, as I am sure you know. |
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Oct-21-07
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| aphasia: Amazing endgame play by Jansa. The finish is reminiscent of a study. |
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Oct-21-07
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| Gypsy: <cdm511: ... I had a temporary mental block, and thought that the black pawn was on c7, in which case it seems Rf5 would clearly be best. ...> Aha. That explains it. |
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Oct-21-07
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| Peligroso Patzer: <Gypsy: <cdm511: Is there something terribly wrong with 75. Rf5?> It definitely drops the win; and it almost make White lose:
<75.Rf5?? Rxf5+ 76.Kxf5 c1Q> and now ***
Though White still does have a draw:
IV. 77.Kf6 Qc6+ 78.Kg7 Qd7 <79.Kh8!> ... => In the line you give (with 75. f5?? xf5+ 76. xf5 c1= ), after 77. f6?, Black wins with 77. ... g5+ 78. e6 d8 and Black controls the f8-square. After 75.f5?? xf5+ 76.xf5 c1=, the only drawing move is 77. g6, e.g., 77. ... g5+ 78. h7 f6 79. g8 g6+ 80. h8=. |
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Oct-21-07
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| Gypsy: <It can take up to s1 moves to collect the rook in some positions> 31 moves |
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Oct-21-07
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| Gypsy: <Peligroso Patzer> Yes, it was supposed to be Kg6. (It seems that for some reason I was switching Kg6 and f6 while typing.) |
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Oct-21-07
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| Peligroso Patzer: <consafo: isn't a queen versus a rook a draw?> No.
See the comments posted on October 17 and 18 for this game: Tartakower vs Najdorf, 1950, which was the game of the day last Wednesday. |
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| Oct-21-07 |
| ounos: <znprdx> google "kungfuchess" |
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Oct-21-07
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| Gypsy: I've been thinking about the pure Q vs R endgame.
It was well established back then that K+R does not succeed in forming a fortress against K+Q. Since than, computers found that K and R can split up and prolong matters that way. But eventually, the rook is forked or skewered, though it first creates a few harassing threats before its final bow. So did Geller resigned too soon? Not likely. GM Jansa was given a thorough classical chess education -- so to say -- by an endgame expert, IM Emil Richter. Thus Jansa certainly would have found a winning plan during the era of adjournments and second adjournments. |
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| Oct-21-07 |
| ConstantImprovement: MostlyAverageJoe <Rc7 followed by Rg2 is impossible.> You are right: It was Rc2:, of course. |
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Oct-21-07
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| MostlyAverageJoe: <ounos: <znprdx> google "kungfuchess"> Or how about chessboxing: http://site.wcbo.org/content/e14/in... |
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Oct-21-07
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| Sneaky: I had seen Lasker's tombstone position before, and I still didn't get it. As soon as I played through the moves I thought "Oh, it's that endgame study!" It's amazing how often we encounter chess games that seem composed, isn't it? |
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Oct-21-07
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| TheaN: 6/7, where the 6/6 was already dubious. I'm a pain at endgames when it becomes to difficult. I was looking at Kg8 with Kf8 but this doesn't allow any defense of f8 for promotion, as the White King can't support its pawn due to perpetual. The idea is brilliant though, and although I was looking at it I saw that it was needed on the second rank with the capture of the Black pawn, but that it was actually possible stumped me. |
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| Oct-21-07 |
| avidfan: White could not take the Black pawn by 48.Kxg6 because 48...Bd8+ (discovered) wins the Knight at b6. I don't know why Black allowed exchange of queens and doubling of his g-pawns at move 30...Qd5-g5 after returning the exchange at move 25...Ne7xd5. Interesting that Black's king was confined to the 8th rank from move 34 till move 60 and then had to be chased to the 2nd rank at the final position when the capture of his last pawn by rook pinned Black's rook and allowing promotion of the f7 pawn.
The position at move 82.Rc4-c3+ deserves a diagram by which to remember the winning technique of this endgame.
click for larger view |
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| Oct-21-07 |
| avidfan: Nalimov tablebase gives the fastest mate in 9 after 83...Rxc2 84.Qd6+ Kg2 85.Qg6+ (because the rook is quickly forked by the queen) 84...Kh3 85.Qd3+
84...Kh1 or Kg1 85.Qd1+ |
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| Oct-21-07 |
| znprdx: <MostlyAverageJoe: actually I wasn't aware of >team chess with computers< I'd be grateful if you could elaborate. As for my vision for the future of Chess, it begins with understanding its origins in geometry.
By >outside of the box< I am suggesting that we explore beyond the simple zero sum outcome. |
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| Oct-22-07 |
| Fezzik: This is such a classic endgame it surprises me that it was chosen as a Sunday puzzle. Yes, it is extremely hard to work out if you've never seen it before. But Lasker first worked it out and Paul Keres wrote an article in Chess Life (which later appeared in his book, <Power Chess>. I'm glad cg.com showed us this game because it is such an essential endgame to know. |
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| Oct-22-07 |
| JohnTal: Masterful endgame technique from Jansa - using his better placed K to force Geller to keep his Rook on the f-file while concurrently using his own K and R to push Geller's K further from the f-pawn and to limit Geller's Rook options. I saw 69 Rc6+, but as a non-GM, I would probably have drawn or mangled this ending. The technique is required learning. |
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Oct-22-07
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| kevin86: An absolutely brilliant win by white! It is kind of a Lucena position on steroids! White chases the black king so far down the line that the pin is set up after the capture of the c-pawn. All this with the rook confined to the c-file to stop the pawn from coming home!! |
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Oct-22-07
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| kevin86: Imagine this! A Sunday puzzle with only SIX combined pieces! |
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Nov-13-07
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| Peligroso Patzer: I discovered over this past weekend that the Lasker study from Deutsches Wochenschach, 1890, mentioned in this thread by <Gypsy> on <Dec-11-05> (which closely mirrors Jansa's play from move 69 in this game) is given in "Practical Rook Endings", by Victor Korchnoi [Edition Olms (c)2002, at page 14]. As given in the Korchnoi book, the starting position is: 
click for larger view with White to move and win. |
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Later Kibitzing > |
sac: 22.Bxc5
