< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|May-11-07|| ||eblunt: I like the real neat finish that is coming up , since it looks like 24 ... e5 could hold after 25 Rd3 exd4
26 Rh3 Qe5 (getting the queen on the diagonal and appearing to protect h8 OK) but ... 27 Rxg7+! Bxg7 28 Qh7#|
|May-11-07|| ||newton296: I saw white's clearance sak bg5! to allow white to open and attack down the H file but figured black would just respond with h5 or bg7. whites attack is still raging but blacks command of the dark squares holds it together no!? never figured black would play bxb ( sucker ) white's winning attack down the h file and command of the dark squares is to obvious?! Oh well, typical sicialian open, middle, and end game attack. I think f5xg6 looked better than the game continuation!|
|May-11-07|| ||newton296: black has lots of defenses making it a great puzzle for friday ! but white probably can still force a win! I'm to busy to invest the time to work them all out.|
|May-11-07|| ||YouRang: I was busy this morning, so I only gave today's puzzle a few seconds of thought, and I didn't solve it.|
It's just as well, because after peeking at the solution, I decided I wouldn't have found it anyway.
I did actually glance at 22. Bg5 to give the rook time to take h7, but I didn't see the point of it.
|May-11-07|| ||kevin86: It's easy to see that the battering ram of rooks and queen will soon break black's position.|
|May-11-07|| ||yoni.tsab: i also thought of 22 Bg5 . how do you put a picture of a chess board in this forum?|
|May-11-07|| ||Themofro: <yoni.tsab> It's explained in the FEN Help Page.|
|May-11-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <PositionalTactician: <To MostlyAverageJoe who always seems to be so cynical ...>>|
Hmm, let me turn my cynicism on.
To PositionalTactician, whose profile indicates that he joined CG a couple hours ago: unless you devoted them to studying all of my 400+ comments in order to be able to conclude that I am *always* cynical, it is difficult not to think that you have created a new identity for the sole purpose of posting the above comment.
On the chance that I am incorrect in the above deduction, I'll turn my cynicism mode off.
<tell me why Black is not positionally lost after 23.Bxf6 exf6? The pawns on f7 and f6, and the displaced black pieces spell disaster for Black> Here's the position in question:
click for larger view
The pawns are bad, but if the black has a chance for Kg7 and Rh8, white will have to do something about the black pawn on g6. After f5xg7, black can reply f7xg7, and the problem is partially gone. White knights are as far away from the action as the black ones.
<For example, White can play 24.Rd3 followed by Rg3. If the b3 knight is taken, Then 25.Rh5 works now, since 25...gh 26.Rg3 and mate>
Correct. Therefore, b3 knight is not taken. Incidentally, 24. Nc1 (suggested by <Mac3> and <prinsallan>)would have been much better, but since you did not mention it, let's continue with your "easy win."
<If you want to try Kg7, Rh8 or Ne7 for Black, even if there is no winning continuation immediately, I believe everyone can see easily that Black is lost>
Only one of the above is worth consideration: Kg7. You did say <Rd3 followed by Rg3>, hence the entire line would be: 22. Bg5 h5 23. Bxf6 exf6 24. Rd3 Kg7 25. Rg3
Black responds: 25 ... axb3, resulting in this position:
click for larger view
In the interest of accelerating the analysis, some possible lines:
26. fxg6 fxg6
26. Rxh5 Rh8
26. axb3 Rh8
What do you propose white is to do in the position above?
|May-11-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <prinsallan> In your line, black would play 24 ... fxg6, not hxg6. Indeed, 25.Nc1 has to come next. Possible continuation: 25... a3 26. bxa3 Nxd4 looks drawish.|
<Mac3> Indeed, 24. Nc1 seems best for the white, but in your line, instead of 24...Na5 try 24...Kg7. With best play, white should eventually win, but it will take a while. I've run Hiarcs on this thing for a long time, and the position evaluates as +2.29 (after 21 plies). I've seen such valuations decay to a draw, but if you have a good line in mind, please post.
<DexterGordon: I think black needs 25...Kg7 here rather than 25...Ne7> No, because after 25...Kg7 26. Qg4 (anything) 27.Rd3 and a mate in the next move. <Otherwise 26. Qh6 locks the black king in and creates real threats> 26 ... axb3 27. axb3 (what else?) Nd7, and now if 28.Rd3, black plays 28... Nxf5, attacking the queen and preventing the mate. Note that the knight is utouchable (28.exf5 Qe1#).
<eaglewing: 25. f6 ef Bh6 f5> I second what <DexterGordon> said (26...Ne7).
Allright, gotta go. No more chess until evening.
|May-11-07|| ||gawain: I venture to say that in ALL the lines (after 22...h5) with the rook sacrifice Rxh5 at either move 22 or 23, B defends successfully with the move Ne7 intending Ng6 to block the check on the g-file. |
However I agree that 22 ...h5 23 Bxf6 exf6 24 Nc1! looks very good for White. B's kingside is paralyzed, giving W time to maneuver. Maybe W could try to move the Q to g3 and the N (now at c1) to e2 and f4.
To prove that this is winning for W requires much more analysis than I am prepared to do, though.
|May-11-07|| ||fm avari viraf: After the text move 22...Bxg5 Black is completely lost so Tuk should have gone for another alternate which would have given him some respite. I think many have posted their defensive propositions like 22...h5 but in the end Black will succumb to White's attack.|
|May-11-07|| ||THE pawn: I don't really know if I can say I got it. I found all the text moves, but I didn't think about the h5 defense, which would have been a problem in a actual game, if played.|
|May-11-07|| ||Themofro: If 22...h5, then how about 23 Rxh5 gxh5 24 Qxh5 with a rooklift, i can see no defense for black. We will also answer 24...Bxg5 with 25 Qxg5+, and then following up with a rook lift as well. |
Haven't analysed it or anything, but i don't see how black could survive that.
|May-11-07|| ||Themofro: <Gawain: B defends successfully with the move Ne7 intending Ng6 to block the check on the g-file.> |
Black pawn is on e7, squares occupied, and i don't think black has time to move the e-pawn, for example,
22...h5 23 Rxh5 gxh5 24 Qxh5 e6 (or e5) 25 Rd3, threatening not only Rg3+, but also 25 Rh3 which would leave black defenseless against 26 Qh7#.
|May-11-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Themofro: Haven't analysed it or anything>|
22. ... h5 23. Rxh5 gxh5 24. Qxh5 was the very first refuted line. Black plays:
24 ... Bg7!
|May-11-07|| ||gawain: <Themofro> I agree with <MostlyAverageJoe> that 24...Bg7 refutes your suggested line. In that line the move Ne7 comes in later, after the e7 square is cleared, like so: 22...h5 23 Rxh5 gxh5 24 Qxh5 Bg7 25 f6 (White's best try I think) exf6 26 Bh6 Ne7 etc... and White's attack fizzles|
|May-11-07|| ||Themofro: <Mostlyaveragejoe & Gawain> Thanks. i had breifly considered 24...Bg7, but had thought that black couldn't stop white from bringing his rook to h3, then mating on h7. Now i realize that black can now move his f-pawn to create a getaway square since his bishop no longer blocks the pawn, thanks.|
|May-11-07|| ||gawain: I just noticed this interesting wrinkle in the line we were looking at. If W follows up with 27 Rd3 (intending to bring the rook over for a mating attack) Bxh6 28 Qxh6 Black may play 28... Nf5. |
click for larger view
Now not 29 exf5?? because of 29 ...Qe1 mate. The old back rank mate!
But White seems to get a draw out of this after 29 Qh4 Ng7 30 Rg3 Rxc3 31 Rxg7+ and perpetual check. Therefore B should try something else at move 27. Maybe 27...f5
So the rook sacrifice at h5 does not appear to work. Have we decided whether W has any winning continuation after the best defense 22...h5
|May-11-07|| ||Jonathan Sarfati: Note that 23. xh7 threatens 24. h8+ g7 and now the blocking move 25. f6+!, cf Marshall vs G Marco, 1900 Hence 23...g7|
|May-12-07|| ||ambe: ok. here it is : 22 .. h5 23 B*f6 ef 24 R*h5! gh 25 Rd3! correct me if I'm wrong.|
|May-12-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <ambe: ok. here it is : 22 .. h5 23 B*f6 ef 24 R*h5! gh 25 Rd3! correct me if I'm wrong>|
25 ... Ne7 draws.
For what it's worth, the best continuation after 22 ... h5 looks something like this:
23. Bxf6 exf6 24. Nc1 Kg7 25. N1e2 Rh8 26. Nf4 Rh6 27. fxg6 fxg6 28. Nb5 Qd7 29. Qxd7+ Nxd7 30. Nxd6, resulting in:
click for larger view
and I am still looking at what next. White definitely is on the way to the win, but it will still take a while.
|May-14-07|| ||PositionalTactician: After Kg7, the knight will be moved, since there is no checkmate after Rg3, for example Nd2.|
and about your cynical attitude, I may be wrong, but before creating this account, i have read and seen a lot of your comments before, and you always seem so criticising. Thus I have this opinion. If I am wrong, sorry. But you can be more tactful.
|May-14-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <PositionalTactician: ... i have read and seen a lot of your comments before, and you always seem so criticising. Thus I have this opinion. If I am wrong, sorry. But you can be more tactful.>|
Feel free to point out the next time you perceive my comment not to be tactful. To spare the others from the dialogue about tact & cynicism, feel free to use my forum.
Your comment <After Kg7, the knight will be moved, since there is no checkmate after Rg3, for example Nd2.> amounts to admitting that your initial idea < White can play 24.Rd3 followed by Rg3> was either unsound or incompletely analyzed.
So, now the line you propose is 22. Bg5 h5 23. Bxf6 exf6 24. Rd3 Kg7 25. Nd2. I still would like to see an easy win that you claimed for white (black responds 25 ... Rh8).
Even if you retract the <24. Rd3> above and replace it with Nc1, white still has to play very carefully to secure the win.
|May-17-07|| ||PositionalTactician: Stating that the plan is Rd3-Rg3 does not mean that I have to follow it move by move. So, Nd2 does not mean that I admit that my plan is bad. |
However, I guess I will have to admit that it will be hard to win. I ran fritz for a bit. It started with +1.00, but dropped to =0.25 after I followed his recommended moves. However, I am sure that most people would love to play White, because it is easier to play. And I am quite sure that White is the only one with winning chances after ...h5.
|May-17-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <PositionalTactician>|
Cool. I guesst the bottom line is: never mind the initial exchanges, and we can find common ground.
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