< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Aug-24-07|| ||melv: I here Deep Blue makes a damn fine latte.|
|Aug-24-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <ellhares: i saied once time that i didnt like the idea of varaity in the difficulty and i wish if all the puzzles are pretty strong since alot of palyers had cretized me but i just say that the hard puzzle is always rich and it makes the conversations here between members very exciting and rich but look now what happen in the easy puzzles i dont have some thing to say and the most thing the members say is ( Igot it wow!!) .>|
This is not necessarily true. When a puzzle is easy, frequently the discussion changes to earlier stages of the game and is no less interesting. I also noticed that the volume of discussion is usually higher in the early days of the week, and frequently fails to reach 3 pages towards the end of the week.
Your comments elsewhere indicate that you might be Elhares Aly (http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.ph...), is that right? This would make you one of the higher-rated kibitzers of daily puzzles; I'd guess that there are no more than 10 regular contributors with comparable rating.
I am sure that most puzzle solvers on this website would appreciate it if, instead of complaining about easy puzzles, you could post some deeper analysis, even of such "easy" puzzles as this one. Sharing your knowledge with those not possessing your level of skill would be more constructive than posts such as the one to which I am responding.
|Aug-24-07|| ||Imaslowlearner: < MostlyAverageJoe: <ellhares: i saied once time ....
and <I am sure that most puzzle solvers on this website would appreciate it if, instead of complaining about easy puzzles, you could post some deeper analysis, even of such "easy" puzzles as this one. Sharing your knowledge with those not possessing your level of skill would be more constructive than posts such as the one to which I am responding.|
Raises some good points, as Elhares contributes nothing to the discussion. I ran the position through 3 strong engines (Rybkas v2.1 d3 and 2.3.2a, and Shredder 10), and none found the correct solution. However, each, after being shown the move, put Black in serious trouble regardless of whether QxQ or g7xR. As I see it, the importance of this puzzle demonstrates a nice sacrifice exchange/ removal of a key defender that we all can learn from.
|Aug-24-07|| ||HFlew: Ugh.
I thought Rxf6 failed because of QxQ, I didn't see that pawn on f4...
|Aug-24-07|| ||mpmeints: I looked from a different perspective, I figure the rook/knight exchange, but to clear the way for queen Qe8+ Blk Rook take queen- wht pawn takes rook (becomes queen) + queen takes queen and bishop takes queen and has what seems like a winning end game for white.|
If black play KH8 instead of taking the queen-white take a pawn at F7+ and the bishop/queen should be able to finish it as well.
|Aug-24-07|| ||jahhaj: Nice puzzle, but quite easy provided you can visualize how Black gets tied up in the position <Peligroso Patzer> posted.|
Don't know what <kevin86> is on about. This puzzle requires imagination. That's why computers don't get it.
|Aug-24-07|| ||Crowaholic: Blast! I had 44. Rxf6 Qxe5 45. Rxh6+? gxh6 46. fxe5 which seems to draw. I didn't see that after 45. fxe5! gxf6 46. exf6, the black king is totally locked into the corner, like a POW! So grabbing a pawn with Rxh6+ was unwise. At least I got the text line except my last move was 47. Qg5+. According to Spike 1.1, this is dead winning, too, although it's admittedly clearly inferior to Qf6!|
|Aug-24-07|| ||TimothyFoster: Got :
44. Rxf6 gxf6
Didn't go further though.
Damn my laziness...
|Aug-24-07|| ||Crowaholic: <znprdx: would a person race a thoroughbred 1500 metres and expect to "win"?>|
znprdx, look at <zanshin>'s post to see how well the thoroughbreds are doing today. I'm not too impressed.
I have the same result here with Spike 1.1. For now it suggests 44. Qd4. Please - where is the winning plan after Qd4 ? It's funny - I stumble across a position that computers/thoroughbreds can't handle at least once a week.
|Aug-24-07|| ||Billosky: Knowing that this week is primarily devoted to "removing the defender" etc.. I saw this one almost instantly. Out of the context of the other puzzles of this week, however, I'm not at all sure I'd have seen it so fast, if at all. And OTB? Well one can only hope!|
|Aug-24-07|| ||Fezzik: We've had quite a few comments from unusual sources today. I rather like the divergent styles of the bloggers here. I have no problem at all with <MAJ>'s or <dzechiel>'s lengthy comments, and I hope I don't offend too many readers. |
If there are lengthy comments to easy puzzles, I don't always read everything closely (especially when it's reams of analytical lines that merely confirm what two or three moves will show). In fact, one of the traditional marks of a good player is that he or she can evaluate a position without having to go through as many moves to prove they are right.
(Mikhail Tal famously compared himself to Botvinnik and marvelled at how often Botvinnik's judgement was right while Tal had to toil away at variations. Even given this stylistic difference, Tal was also able to evaluate positions far better than almost all of his opponents.)
|Aug-24-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Crowaholic> & <zanshin>|
Thanks for the Spike/Fritz reports. Rybka also is helpless in today's puzzle and wants to play Qd4 (see RandomVisitor chessforum).
So, yes, this puzzle is a computer-killer.
|Aug-24-07|| ||zb2cr: <MAJ>,
Your comment was: "So, yes, this puzzle is a computer-killer."
Easy to see why. The payoff, especially in the 44. ... Qxe5 branch, is so far off. The variation I posted I posted requires more work to get it to a White Pawn Queening. I estimate about move 60 before that happens--32 ply. I know that the chess engine <Crafty> can have its search horizon extended to 29 ply. I suspect the well-intentioned programmer's rules prune the search tree too early in every case to catch this puzzle.
Computers in general--as we know how to build them in the 'Von Neumann' architecture--act as logical theorem provers. But Godel's theorem showed that there are infinite classes of problems which are not susceptible to logical proof and can only be solved by creating a metalanguage. Creativity is not a logical activity and computers (as we know how to build them today) don't create.
|Aug-24-07|| ||GoldenKnight: This one was actually pretty easy. The main thing is to note that 45...Qxe5 46.fxe5 gxf6 47.exf6 doesn't work as Black's king is now trapped on a knight's jump of four squares from f8 to h7, and can only watch helplessly as White's king roams free -- all the way up to the 7th rank.|
|Aug-24-07|| ||RandomVisitor: |
click for larger view
(+2.12): 44.Qd4 Qc7 45.Rxf6 gxf6 46.Qxf6+ Kg8 47.Qxh6 Rxd7 48.Qg5+ Kf8 49.Bxd7 Qb7+ 50.f3 Qxd7
|Aug-24-07|| ||RandomVisitor: 44.Qd4 could be a simpler way to win. Black has 44...Qc7, 44...Kg8 or 44...Ng8, none of which works.|
|Aug-24-07|| ||fm avari viraf: There are no more options for White than the killer move 44.Rxf6 gxf6 45.Qxf6+ wins. Even ...Qxe5 45.fxe5 gxf6 46.exf6 as the Black King & Rook both are stranded on the Back Rank in agony.|
|Aug-24-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <RandomVisitor> What happens if you force Rybka to play 44.Rxf6?|
|Aug-24-07|| ||TheaN: Hm. 4/5.
44.Rxf6 seems forcing enough. 44....gxf6 IS Black's best reply as it keeps the Queens, but White's d-pawn will win the day with any variation: I did not go indepth.
44....Qxe5 is funny to analyze, however. After 45.fxe5 gxf6 46.exf6 Black is pretty much paralyzed and at some point has to give the Rook for the pawn. It's an easier win for White than the first move for Black, although it doesn't seem like it.
|Aug-24-07|| ||RandomVisitor: <MAJ>Rybka gets hung up for a while in the Qxe5 line. After 44. Rxf6 Qxe5 45.fxe5 gxf6 46.exf6:|
1. (6.14): 46...Kg8 47.Kg3 b5 48.axb5 a5 49.b6 Kh7 50.Kf3 Rg8 51.b7 a4 52.Bd5 Rd8 53.Bxf7
2. (6.08): 46...b5 47.axb5 a5 48.b6 Kg8 49.b7 Kh7 50.Kg3 Kh8 51.Kf3
3. (6.26): 46...Rf8 47.Kg3 b5 48.axb5 a5 49.b6 Kg8 50.b7 Kh8 51.Kg4
|Aug-24-07|| ||ellhares: haha programs are cowerds!! when u enter these position to the great and famouse programs it cant find the move (R take f6)a move which any1500 rated player can find but programs prefer to play (Qe5) first then it play (R take f6) and that ofcusre a wining line but the idea here that programs avoid to trade queens cause programs depend on the calculations the tactic not stratigic and so the situation after trade queens r wining for black even medium player can see that but computers dont see that cause they depend onley on calculation and they dont have the ability to make over sight of the board like human and that our edg over computers!! but who knows may be in the future the can design a differnt computers so the draw with programs will be very hard then!!|
|Aug-24-07|| ||Tactic101: Wow, I got this one. Rxf6! is inspiration. And the position that follows up after Qxe5, fxe5, gxf6 and exf6 is quite nice. Black is absolutely helpless against white's plan of running the king to c7 and winning.|
|Aug-25-07|| ||Mendrys: I liked this game and puzzle. A great deal of chess is pattern recognition and the position after 44. Rxf6 Qxe5 45. fxe5 gxf6 46. exf6 is instructive in this regards. |
After looking at the other comments I was surprised that Crafty 20.14 was able to find Rxf6 after about 20 minutes of thinking on my dual core 2.2 GHZ PC. My poor Fritz 7 didn't have a clue after 30 minutes.
<ellhares> please understand that this site is for people of all chess abilities. Its goal is to be instructive as well as entertain. Most of the kibbitzing on the easier puzzles revolve around how the game got to the puzzle position. In this regard, I feel you may have much to offer, beyond complaining how easy the puzzles are.
|Aug-25-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Mendrys> Count me surprised about Crafty 20.14.|
My Hiarcs11.1 MP spent 2.5 CPU hours, went 24 plies deep, analyzed over 3 billions of nodes, and kept insisting on Qqd4 (+1.80) ...
|Aug-25-07|| ||Mendrys: From Crafty after 35 minutes of thinking:
21 35:46 3.956.488,568 2.349 +2.25
44. Rxf6 Qxe5 45. fxe5 gxf6 46. exf6 Kg8 47. Kg3 b5 48. axb5 axb5 49. Bxb5 Rb8 50. Bc6 Rd8 51. Kf4 Kf8 52. Kf5 Kg8 53. f4 Kf8 54. Ke5
I have a feeling that Hiaracs 11.1 would thouroughly beat Crafty. That's what makes this interesting and suprising.
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