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Later Kibitzing > |
| Aug-10-09 |
| Patriot: I remember this trap as well.
6...Nxd5 7.Bxd8 Bb4+ 8.Qd2 Bxd2+ 9.Kxd2 Kxd8 and black has won a piece for a pawn. With all the talk about black not winning most of the games in this combo, that's very interesting. Perhaps black allowed complications in those games because I have to believe black is indeed winning and should just play simple chess and eventually win by attrition. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| MaxxLange: <OBIT> In the Halloween Gambit, White has targets in the center for his pawn roller, which seems to me to be the basis of his play. Also, he still has a Queen to help his attack. None of factors these are present here. |
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Aug-10-09
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| hedgeh0g: The good ol' Queen's Gambit how-can-he-move-his-pinned-knight-oh-my-god trap! Another good example of how pins can backfire in the opening if you're not careful (the other classic one is the Bxf7+ Ng5+/Ne5+ Qxg4 combo). |
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Aug-10-09
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| johnlspouge: Monday (Very Easy):
S Lemieux vs D Feoktistov, 2001 (6...?) Black to play and win.
Material: Down a P. The White Ke8 has 1 legal move, d2, raising interest in the candidate 6…Bb4+, perhaps after preparatory moves. The White Nd5 defends b4, and the White Bg5 defends d2. Both pieces can be removed or deflected with 6…Nxd5. Only Nd5 can check the Black Ke8. Candidates (6…): Nxd5
6…Nxd5 7.Bxd8 [else, drop a N]
7…Bb4+ 8.Qd2 Bxd2+ 9.Kxd2 Kxd8
Black started and ended the sequence of captures, so he has emerged a B ahead. |
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Aug-10-09
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| johnlspouge: I will be on vacation without a computer until Thursday or Friday, the first days I have not posted to CG in 1.5 years (just in case anyone is counting). |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| randomsac: After Nxd5, black is up a minor piece because of Bb4+ which wins back the queen. |
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Aug-10-09
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| Dr. Funkenstein: I carelessly fell into this trap when playing d4 for the first time against one of my students (probably was age 12 or 13) a few years ago. It's nice to see Lifemaster's post on a 2261 who walked into it. |
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Aug-10-09
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| ZUGZWANG67: 6. ...Nxd5 wins a piece (7. Bxd8 Bb4+ 8.Qd2 Bxd2+ 9.Kxd2 Kxd8). If I remember correctly, this combination occurs when a QGD is mishandled by Black. |
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Aug-10-09
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| ZUGZWANG67: Or rather, by W.
:) |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| lzromeu: What's black intend with Nxd5?
In a fast look, Nf3 is a good double defense: protect the bishop and d2 square, resulting advantage of Knight over a pawn for black. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| zb2cr: After perhaps two seconds of thought, I realized this was a case of a truly ancient trap. White mistakenly believes he has won a Pawn. Black replies, though, with 6. ... Nxd5! and wins a piece. <Izromeu>'s suggested 7. Nf3 is easily met by 7. ... Bb4+. Now, if White interposes the Knight on d2, the White Bishop on g5 is hanging. If he plays 8. Bd2, Black simply exchanges and White has no immediate threats and Black remains up by a minor piece vs. a Pawn. If White plays 7. Bxd8, "winning" the Queen, then his Bishop cannot interpose and 7. ... Bb4+ forces 8. Qd2, Bxd2+; 9. Kxd2, Kxd8 leaves Black still up by a Knight vs. a Pawn. |
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Aug-10-09
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| YouRang: A good trap to be aware of, but more generally, any situation where a check can be answered only by blocking with the queen is bound to be trouble. Here, we gain a piece a piece and remove the defender with 6...Nxd5!, and then come out on top after briefly lending our queen: 7.Bxd8 Bb4+ 8.Qd2 Bxd2+ 9.Kxd2 Kxd8  |
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Aug-10-09
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| kevin86: An old favorite of mine. I do feel sorry for the white queen,that she must interpose on the check and leave black a piece ahead. |
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Aug-10-09
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| swordfish: Even at my level (ca. ELO 1700), very few players seem to fall for this trap, although the Cambridge Springs is enjoyable to play in any case. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| lzromeu: <zb2cr> Thanks. I see all this options too. I'm trying to understand the intending of a 2000 ELO player to move nxd5... Maybe black's up by a Knight vs. a Pawn is not enough for resignation, maybe yes. Feoktistov regrets? |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| MiCrooks: Obit where do you live? I'd like to play you speed games from the starting position after the retreat Bd2 for whatever stakes seem reasonable to you :)! Or crank up your favorite chess engine and try to see if you can win with Black from that position. White has nothing. Queens gone, King in the middle, piece down for a pawn. Lagging development. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| MaxxLange: <I'm trying to understand the intending of a 2000 ELO player to move nxd5> Easy: he thought he was winning a pawn. He blundered. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| WhiteRook48: 6...Nxd5 7 Bxd8 Bb4+ 8 Qd2 Bxd2+ 9 Kxd2 Kxd8 picks up a knight |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| OBIT: <Life Master AJ><MaxxLange><MiCrooks><Everybody Else Who Can't Take a Joke>Geez, guys, here I'm just trying to interject some lively repartee with an iconoclastic argument, and you're responding with a discussion based on chess principles. Sorry, but no fair using logic when logic isn't the point to my comment. With that said, is this position truly resignable, even against 2200+ competition? Let's evaluate the position. First, White has a pawn for the piece, to which we'll give a -2 score. He also two pawns on the center files to Black's none, with one of those pawns already on d4. So what would you say these center pawns are worth, at least +0.5, maybe even +0.75 or more? Do you consider a -1.5 position to be resignable? I rather doubt that, and, if you do, you are giving up on positions way too soon - take this from a guy who has had a lot of practice playing bad positions. Resignations in positions like this are provoked by ego more than anything else. The poor sap is so embarrassed he fell for this sucker shot that he immediately throws in the towel, when the truth is, if he keeps his wits, his winning chances are still at least 10%. And, 10% is better than 0%. To throw in a few more swindling tips (remember, this is from a guy who screws up the opening a fair amount): First, try to avoid exchanges and keep the game as complicated as possible, which I suppose is common sense. (By the way, that's the main reason I suggest Bd2 in the puzzle position - don't let your opponent exchange queens.) To that point, though, understand that in an unbalanced middle game, an extra piece often does not matter much - generally, that extra piece doesn't cripple you until the position has been simplified. Most important of all, however, is to realize that psychology sometimes works in your favor in an objectively lost position. Your opponent may get irritated when you don't resign quickly. He may get frustrated when the win isn't coming as easily as he expected. These mindsets can work in your favor if you are able to grab the initiative, and, trust me, players in this situation will panic, even when winning lines are still there. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| 007chess: I am not much of chess player but more a watcher: But dose not 7 Kn to F3 work for white? |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| learningchess24: At first glance, Black is being pinned by the white bishop's at g5 and a little bit awkward knight posting at d5 threatening to capture the Knight at f6 but base on my analysis as well as my calculations, Black has a good counter play. From here, White's monarch is in great danger because of the vulnerable check at b4. Now, Black's counter-play is to take advantage on this square which is the b4 square. Now, Black's move is Nxd5!.. followed by a Bishop's check at b4!, winning a piece. |
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| Aug-10-09 |
| felixd: Haha! Nice to see that the combination of the day happened in a COQ :) |
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Aug-11-09
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| LIFE Master AJ: <Izromeu> Black just won a piece. (See the notes.) The logical continuation would be:
7. x /d8, b4+; 8.d2, (The only legal move, otherwise it was mate!); 8... x/d8. Once Black captures White's Queen, he will have won a piece, White only has one sorry Pawn for the lost lady. [A few of my (beginner) students have won more material when White played 9.QxB/b4, and then forgot about the  fork on c2.] |
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Aug-11-09
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| LIFE Master AJ: <Obit> While I agree that amateurs should not resign, when a 2200 player does, it is usually is a good indicator that its not a position that is worth playing out. White might have been a good enough player to see this ... OR he simply forgot this trap. |
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Aug-11-09
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| LIFE Master AJ: <Obit> Check out this link ... and find my earlier post ... its exactly what you were talking about. jessicafischerqueen chessforum |
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