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Helbig vs Schroder
Hamburg - (1933), Hamburg GER
Queen Pawn Game: Symmetrical Variation (D02)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-28-13  zb2cr: Missed this one. Was unable to find the correct follow-up after 8. Kg3.
Nov-28-13  LIFE Master AJ: This one is too easy, the pattern is very simple, we have seen it in other combinations (on this site) <many times> ...

the correct sequence is:
6...BxP/f2+!;
(We draw the WK out into the open field.)

7.KxB/f2▢,
(The only legal move.)

7...Ng4+; 8.Kg3▢;
Ugly - but there is no choice!

[If 8.Ke1?,then 8...Ne3; smothers the WQ. Or if 8.Kg1?, then 8...Qb6+; and mate next.]

and after Kg3, then 8...h5; and its an easy win. Black has too many threats, (...Qc7+; and also ...e5; and then h4+); there is no way the WK can survive all of this. QED

Nov-28-13  LIFE Master AJ: Checked ... nailed it to the wall, there was never much doubt. (I spent about 10 minutes on this one. I briefly considered trying to fork or win more material, but that looked like it might let the WK out of the noose.)
Nov-28-13  LIFE Master AJ: All that remains is to run an engine ... and see if there are any nuances the humans have overlooked.
Nov-28-13  LIFE Master AJ: Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!!!
Nov-28-13  Nick46: <Penguincw: I didn't get Monday's puzzle, or Tuesday's or yesterday's, but got today (at least saw the trap with 8...Ne3 if 8.Ke1).> ditto .. In other words (also taking into account <Morfishine>): The most difficult puzzle is to be the puzzle setter.
Nov-28-13  LIFE Master AJ: BTW, this one looks (to me) <VERY MUCH> like the "Greek Gift" sacrifice, except that we take on f2 and not h2. (I have several web pages dealing with this subject.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_...

http://www.chess.com/topic/greek-gift

http://www.chesstactics.org/index.p...

Game Collection: how to beat your dad at chess part 5 Dc31-39

http://www.ajschess.com/lifemastera...

http://aboutchess.mustofpain.com/ch...

http://www.ajschess.com/lifemastera...

Nov-28-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  john barleycorn: <LIFE Master AJ> f2 is different from h2 however same colour.

<In chess, the Greek gift sacrifice (or classical bishop sacrifice) is a typical sacrifice of a bishop by White playing Bxh7+ or Black playing Bxh2+.>

Nov-28-13  abuzic: <eblunt: IMO ♖ + 2♙ for ♗ and white can't castle is a bit more than a slight edge.> After 8...Ne3 9.Qe1 Nxc2 10.Qd1 Qc7+ 11.Kf2 Nxa1 12.Bb2 Nc2 13.e3 0-0 14.Bd3 Nxe3 15.Kxe3 White is ♘+♗ for ♖+3♙


click for larger view

Black's active pieces are only ♕ and ♖ and partially ♗, cannot advance his ♙s without risk, and the white ♔ is not exposed. One line maybe 15...e5 16.Nxe5 Re8 17.Kf2 Rxe5 18.Bxe5 Qxe5 19.Nf3 Black has extra advance ♙ but white can fight for a draw. Compare the diagram above after the 8...Ne3 variation with this one that arises after 8...h5 9.Ne5 Ne3 10.Qe1 Nxc2 11.Qf2 Qg5+ 12.Kh3 Qxe5


click for larger view

if black tries to save the ♖ with 13.Rb1 or Ra2 then 13...Qg5 14.g3 Ne3 and white must give the ♕ or face # like 15.Qf4 Qg4+ 16.Qxg4 hxg4#, the problem for white is his King exposed after 6...Bxf2+, in the best scenario, will be ♖+2♙s down

Nov-28-13  eblunt: <abuzic> Thank you for a very thorough analysis. Yes, didn't realise that the black N will go eventually, so the advantage is not so clear cut as you correctedly pointed out. Mind you, I'd certainly fancy my chances from there - once the Knight is out and the Rooks centered , those doubled passed pawns are going to take some stopping.
Nov-28-13  LoveThatJoker: <6...Bxf2+ 7. Kxf2 Ng4+> confers Black the advantage:

A) 8. Ke1 Ne3 wins the Queen
B) 8. Kg1 Qb6+ mating
C) 8. Kg3 Ne3 9. Qe1 Nxc2 and 10...Nxa1

LTJ

Nov-28-13  WoodPushkin: Greetings: EZ...6. Bf2+. But, man talk about taking up checkers or tic-tac-toe and joining the chix/carnival circuit. Not only sleeping at the wheel of the opening but too proud to give away the queen and accepting gruesome mate instead. Triple Amateur Hour at the club that day in 1933. Or perhaps the beer was flowing a bit heavy on the White side of the board. :-)

Anyway play could have continued...

analysis

(8.Kg3 ..as a human would play, 8..h5 9.Ne5 Ne3 10.Bb2?! It takes computers, top level GM's and us on a really lucky day to calculate so far and give away the Q vs. positional devastation. 10.Qe1 is the human move. 10...Nxc2 11.Qf2 Qg5+ 12.Kh3 Qxe5 13.Nb3 Nxa1

(see diagram)


click for larger view

This of course is a crushing win. Stockfish gives this (-10.5) depth=19 for Black. However it is a good study in tenacity and defending in lost positions.

Nov-28-13  Patriot: <LMAJ> Great to see you again! And nice job on the puzzle!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Nov-28-13  Ed Frank: Got this one quickly -- nice bishop sac and subsequent king hunt.
Nov-28-13  BOSTER: It's more easy to see 6...Bxf2 than to find among over 700,000 chess games <Helbig> who has only one game ln database. You need a great skill to find out this.
Nov-28-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: These positions are delightful for figuring out tricks, traps, and mating attacks!

< 6... Bxf2+! >

The instant i saw the game position on the CG front page, i was reminded of a game from Irving Chernev's "1000 best short games of chess" the shortest game played between masters in classical time control Gibaud - Lazard 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nd2 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.h3 Ne3

The Bxf2+ sac is obvious. After the silly 6.b4? white leaves his king vulnerable, the rook is exposed on the long diagonal, as well a host of weak dark "holes" around the king. Even without analysis the sac is almost irresistible, but after 7.Kxf2 the knight move..

< 7... Ng4+! > forces the the white king to g3 since Kg1 Qb6+ with mate to follow, and after Ke1?? Ne3 wins the smothered queen.

So black only needed to see 6... Bxf2+ 7.Kxf2 Ng4+ 8.Kg3 Ne3 9.Qe1 Nxc2 in order to justify the sac (black would net at least a R + 2p and a very exposed white K for the B + N. But once the line is begun and white plays Kg3 black can certainly take his time to look for something better! This follows the maxim < "once you find a good move, sit on your hands and look for a better one!" >

< 8... h5! >
Anchors the knight and threatens ..Qc7+ Kh4 (Kh3?? Nf2+) with several dangerous mate threats like with ..f6 and ..g5+ or with ..Ne3 and ..Qf4+. For example, if white plays
9. Bb2 Qc7+ 10. Kh4 Ne3 11. Qe1 Qf4+ 12. Kh3 Qg4#.
Chasing the knight is also too slow;
9. h3 Qc7+ 10. Kh4 Ne3 11. Qe1 Qf4+ 12. g4 Nf5# or..
9. Qe1 Qc7+ 10. Kh4 Ne3 11. g3 (to prevent Qf4+; not Qg3?? Nf5+) e5! (and white will be nailed to the wall) 12. Bb2 Qe7+ 13. Ng5 f6 14. Ngf3 g5+

Almost any move for white leads to disaster. So the moral of the story is.. < Beware of peice sacs that expose your king! >

Nov-28-13  Halldor: At first glance Black should simply withdraw the Bishop and develop the position.

I started to think: If I could put down some black pieces, where would I put them; and that would be Ng4 and Bg2#. But after 6... Ng4 comes 7 bxc5 and the dream is over.

Then I tried to reverse the moveorder, as I often do when I'm out of ideas, and miraculously that works! 6... Bxf2+ 7 KxB Ng4+ 8 Ke1 Ne3!! wins the stalemated Queen.

Nov-28-13  M.Hassan: <abuzic:9.Nb3 providing d2 escape for the K, and if 9.Qf2+ Kd2 10.Qe3+ Ke1; even 9.Nb1 works the same way, and if 9...Nf2 10.Qd4 Qxd4 11.Nxd4 g4 and white gets the black N.>

It appears that I am learning more and more from you.I extend my thanks. But tonight, I think your move numbering is wrong:<9.Qf2+ Kd2 10.Qe3+ Ke1>

First:
9.Nb3 Qf2+
10.Kd2 Qe3+
11.Ke1
So, what is the result? Draw by repetition?
Also, you mention:
and if 9...Nf2 10.Qd4 Qxd4 11.Nxd4 <g4> which I think should be <<Ng4>>

The second line, I am glad I was not wrong and as I thought, Black gets a meagre advantage. Thank you again

Nov-28-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Sad for one line delve good am infer fluffs in b4 do e3 or nb3 instead to harass cleric lick off c5 am scheme to divulge lines effront it now in daccord act a clink cedes chase free knight will follow in to win queen or gain material king side achtung baby comes a cropper damage done by inch eg win he racing 6...Bxf2+ king obliged to recapture court in the crosser fire between c5 and g4 am go figure 7.Kxf2 Ng4+ suffers the indignity of get caught out in the open cad recharge 8.Kg3 exchange off re you have c5 sacrificed black must couple his chance one to strike fableing 8.Ke1 Ne3 9.Bb2 Nxd1 10.Rxd1 wins queen 4 points ahead instead he garnered 8.Kg3 h5 9.Nh4 folder ship jack he cinch cheap shot mate in three have at hand stumped harangues principle having king caged it brave in bowing basically in lights case again nearly in either bind again heffalump 9.Ne5 Ne3 (-5.91) wins queen or betcha staff inch across it jet in quaverings 10.Qe1 Nxc2 11.Qf2 Qg5+ in jab daggers at dawn e5 knight is doomed black regains his piece in demand on key a rush over a la 12.Kh3 Qxe5 am clearly in front by about (-10.00) advantage comes in the form g5 and alf a1 exchange sac bag sic.

Tingles son in hand off my cap to you sir ok in ogles culminate 9.Nh4 Qc7+ king must be hunted down at all costs free services eg i ment cuff hoof at gg to mission queen bishop control ddark squares weak for light bad accolade scratch free pine he isnt let out of the bag string along c7+ actual changes abound queen eg free catches right a ordination 10.Kf3 Qc3+ deaf fade away in eccentric ersatz one germane family it nice in no time like just reticence ogles again of hive mind combination 11.Kf4 Qe3.

Land a punch at enact finger free for a fog c5 line fire and belly it brimstone to vilificates a bind cable wire he at doorknob good c5 a f2 first a key f6 in g4 end lade to rest,

And enough in g3 when heat pour in c7+ king of f3 thought a foilable c3+ king fed definatives 11.Kf4 rich in picking 3e as the finish entombed in effect as caught out b4 ol win koinus agreed queen triangulates a bet camped in his own half king light burning ember second to none rowing revvers in e3#

Nov-28-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  gofer: The first two moves are obvious, the third is much more subtle...

<6 ... Bxf2+>
<7 Kxf2 Ng4+>
<8 Kg3 h5!>

The king is stuck in no mans land with Qd6+/Qc7+ threatened. So white might try...

9 e4?! h4+ 10 Kxg4 e5#! or Kh3 Nf2#!

or

9 Nh4? Qc7+ 10 Kf3 Qc3+ 11 Kf4 Qe3#

<9 Ne5? Ne3>

~~~

Yep...

Nov-28-13  mel gibson: This game contains a blunder -
6 b4.

White should have played 6 e3.

All Bishops which bear down upon a King should be investigated especially when a Bishop sacrifice
& a resulting Knight check plus a free moving Queen are in play.

Nov-28-13  LIFE Master AJ: << Nov-28-13 Patriot: <LMAJ> Great to see you again! And nice job on the puzzle!

Happy Thanksgiving! >>

Thank you sir. God bless and a very warm wish for a great and safe holiday for yourself, as well.

Nov-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: OK, 6...Bxf2+ is old hat. 7.Kxf2 Ng4+ 8.Kg3 (8.Ke1? Ne3 wins the queen; 8.Kg1? Qb6+ and mate in two) Ne3 9.Qe1 Qd6+ 10.Kf2 (10.Kh4? Qf4+; 10.Kg4? d5+; and 10.Kh3? d5+ 11.g4 h5 are suicidal) Nxc2 11.Qd1 Qb6+ 12.Kg3 (12.e3? Nxe3!) Ne3 13.Q moves Nf5+ 14.Kh3 e5 and Black must be winning.
Nov-29-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Hmm, didn't think of 8...h5! Good idea to know.
Nov-29-13  LIFE Master AJ: BTW - I was NOT trying to offend - but simply remarking how similar the two patterns were and how many things are consistent with the "Greek gift" sack ... and this puzzle.

#1.) Black sacks a Bishop to draw out the WK.

#2.) The King winds up on g3. (This usually happens in many "Greek gift" games, the King <that is being pursued> winds up being forced to a more vulnerable square, g3 or g6 ... depending on whether it is the WK or the BK that is being attacked.)

#3.) Black's follow-up is to play ...Ng4; this creates mating threats to the WK.

#4.) Many of the mating patterns and the patterns to win material are <similar/the same> as those of the "Greek gift" sack.

#5.) The follow-up (for Black) takes about the same amount of moves.

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