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Francesco di Castellvi vs Narciso Vinyoles
"Old in Chess" (game of the day Nov-13-2012)
Valencia (1475), Valencia ESP
Scandinavian Defense: Ilundain Variation (B01)  ·  1-0


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 13 OF 13 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-01-13  Conrad93: The game was designed for poetic reasons.

Accuracy was not a concent.

Mar-05-14  Karpova: Dr. Emanuel Lasker, Berlin, May 9, 1912 gives the game score with annotations and also writes:

<Die Regeln der damaligen Zeit scheinen sich von den heutigen nur in dreierlei Hinsicht unterschieden zu haben: 1. Es gab noch keine Rochade, sondern nur den Sprung des Königs. 2. Wer die Dame verlor, verlor damit die Partie. 3. Ein bis in die achte Reihe vordringender Bauer konnte nur eine Figur werden, die bereits geschlagen war.>

(The rules of that time seem to have deviated from todays in only three instances: 1. There was no castling, only the jump of the ♔. 2: He who lost the ♕ lost the game. 3. A ♙ which entered the 8th file could only become a piece which had already been taken.)

Source: 'Pester Lloyd', 1912.05.12, page 9

Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <Phony Benoni: First!>

<Phony> Some of us are having a bit of a conversation about puns, and I happened to see I turned that in as a Pun suggestion some years ago. I came here just to be able to link to the game in question and saw you had the same idea. GMTA and so do ours.

Dec-20-14  kamagong24: scandanavian is older than sicilian's defense!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: Did White miss the Ne5 trick when B went to g4? It was a lively game in any case. Interesting that they recorded the game.

A Centre-Counter so early on! It is still quite a popular opening and quite sharp for both players...

Sep-04-15  The Kings Domain: It's a marvel that a record of this game survives; for a long time I thought Greco's games were the oldest. It would be great if older games than this will be discovered in the near future.
Feb-07-16  Asabovsobelo: I completely missed 6. Ne6! Thanks KingsCrusher.
Apr-02-16  MariusDaniel: LOL@Narciso's defense
Premium Chessgames Member
  centralfiles: <<Richard Taylor >Did White miss the Ne5 trick when B went to g4?> see karpovas post above about losing the Queen.
That would also explain why not Bxf7+ then Ne5+ that would be an illegal move putting the Q en prise
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <central files> I see. But Bxf7+ would have been o.k. as the Q isn't thus in "check", I presume only the K can be in check hence it is a good move here. But I had forgotten about this game.
Premium Chessgames Member
  centralfiles: after Bxf7 white cannot play Ne5
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  Jonathan Sarfati: Interesting article about this game and the origin of modern chess:

Valencia and the origin of modern chess

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  Jonathan Sarfati: This should not be called the Scandinavian Defence but the Valencian Defence or Vinyoles Defence.
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  Jonathan Sarfati: <centralfiles: <<Richard Taylor >Did White miss the Ne5 trick when B went to g4?> see karpovas post above about losing the Queen. That would also explain why not Bxf7+ then Ne5+ that would be an illegal move putting the Q en prise> Still strange, because doesn't 20. Qxd7+ also put the Q en prise?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: Interesting to see the oldest game in any case. Or what may be the oldest.
Mar-30-17  Yigor: Here are evaluations from ChessOK database:

1. e4 (KP, +0.11) d5 (Scandinavian, +0.29) 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 (Ilundain Variation, +0.33) 4. Bc4 Nf6 (+0.37) 5. Nf3 Bg4 (mistake, +1.12 after 6. Ne5) 6. h3 (mistake, +0.33) Bxf3 (+0.48) 7. Qxf3

The sequence of Pawn Structure Classification Codes: 2E -> 2Ed -> 6Ed -> 6Ed1h (pawn height =13)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <Richard Taylor:>, yes, oldest known game with modern Q and B moves. What's more, the two players, along with their fellow poet and nobelman Bernat Fenollar who commented on the game, were the probably the ones who invented these rules!
Jun-12-17  schnarre: ...Interesting to go over such an old game!
Premium Chessgames Member
  lomez: This might not actually be from 1745. Maybe a few years later.
Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: It looks a game played between a king (white) and his court jester (black). Why not 10. ...Rb8 11. Qc6 Rb6, for example? Probably because if black won, it was "Off with his head!".

Lasker's rules cited by <Karpova> are interesting, especially:

2) He who loses the queen, loses the game (surprisingly feminist for the period), and

3) a pawn that reaches the 8th rank can only become a piece which has already been taken (that would avoid a lot of the crazy fumbling around that goes on in blitz games, trying to put tin foil on top of a pawn or something)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Jonathan Sarfati: <ChessHigherCat: (surprisingly feminist for the period),>

But then, maybe not. From the date and place, many chess historians believed that the huge expansion in the power of the queen was a tribute to Queen Isabella of Castile, a powerful queen regnant.

Nov-07-17  MariusDaniel: Great chess game from 15th century!
Sep-21-18  Yigor: The next Scandinavian game in this database: Hanstein - von der Lasa (1839): gid=1266108.
Sep-21-18  Parachessus: <ChessHigherCat> Christian Freeling's brilliant chess variant called "Grand Chess" only allows pawns to promote to captured pieces. So if your queen is still on the board, you can't promote to a queen. Also, in GC pawns can promote on the last TWO ranks. This would mean K+P vs K endings would always be won by the side with the extra pawn.
Sep-22-18  Yigor: 4. Bc4 can be called "Castellvi attack". The main line is 4. d4. The next Scandinavian: Ilundain game: Morphy/Barnes - Staunton/Owen (1858), gid=1242885.
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