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Florian Jenni vs Lukasz Cyborowski
"Jenni from the Block" (game of the day Sep-22-12)
36th Olympiad (2004)  ·  Slav Defense: Exchange. Trifunovic Variation (D14)  ·  1-0
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-03-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: Sorry, only one J-Lo pun allowed per decade.
Dec-03-04  Milo: Beautiful. 30...Qc7 31.Rxg7+ Rxg7 32.Rh5#
Dec-04-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: So I guess we'll see Gilg vs I Censer, 1927 = "Gilgi" in 2011 - unless you censer it.
Sep-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Abdel Irada: <tpstar>: If they "censer" it, I will become incensed. ;-)
Sep-22-12  thegoldenband: <chessgames.com: Sorry, only one J-Lo pun allowed per decade.> Apparently!
Sep-22-12  LoveThatJoker: "Don't be fooled by the rocks that I got..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dly6...

LTJ

PS. If 29...Qe7, Stockfish gives the following as winning for White (Moves in <> denote main line):

Analysis Diagram - Position after 29...Qe7


click for larger view

<30. Rxg7+>

[30. Qxe7 Rxe7 31. Rxf6 Rxg1+ 32. Kxg1 Kg7 33. Rf4 Rc7 34. b3 c5 35. dxc5 Rxc5 36. Ra4 Rc7 37. Kf2 Kf6 (+1.25/Depth of 24; Black may have drawing chances in this line however)]

<30...Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Qxg7 32. Qxe6 Qg3 33. Qf7+ Kh6 34. Qxf6+ Kh5 35. Qg5+ Qxg5 36. hxg5 Kxg5 37. Kg2> (+1.41/Depth of 24)

Sep-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: That was strange. I thought black had the advantage on the kingside, but white ended up crashing through there. Not what I was expecting.

The move that took me by surprise was black's reply to 23. Qxh5


click for larger view

Playing through the game quickly in human mode, I was expecting 23...Rxg2+ with ideas like f5 followed by playing the other rook to g7. Seems like a good attack. But 23...Bxg2 didn't seem anywhere near as good. There is no point in setting up a discovered attack along the g file if white can block the g file with rook or knight.

Fritzie agrees. He reckons that 23...Bxg2 gives white the advantage (about one prawn), where 23...Rxg2+ would have kept a black advantage, also of about a prawn.

Strange how destinies can sometimes change on the smallest of decisions. Butterfly flaps its wings...

Sep-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  King Sacrificer: Didn't Black play a poor game here? 13... g5 looked very ambitious to me.
Sep-22-12  shakman: Agreed with <Once> .... g5, h5 looked like a good idea to me... but somewhere got lost....I was also looking at Rxg2 option but didn't get the continuation idea of f5

Checked that the theory here pretty good enough... another game played Ribli vs E Torre, 1984

Sep-22-12  Moszkowski012273: Ditto on 23....Rxg2+
Sep-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: New decade:new J-Low pun-lol

Black must capture the rook and loses the queen.

Sep-22-12  psmith: I wonder if 17... g4 was a better plan.
Sep-22-12  hellopolgar: 23. ... Rxg2+ is what an average player like me would prefer, but black is a GM and he obviously saw something that an average player doesn't see.
Sep-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: A lot of good it did him.
Sep-22-12  Moszkowski012273: GM's miss stuff just like the rest of us don't sell yourself short, no way was Bxg2 correct.
Sep-22-12  The Last Straw: GMS aren't perfect: they're still human. That's the sad part about these games.
Sep-22-12  The Last Straw: But again, it also makes some games funny :-).
Sep-22-12  erniecohen: Not much of a game. 29...Qc7 looks like a draw.
Sep-22-12  radgenal: A heap see it but only the few know it ! this just proves what the old chestmasters taught long ago, 'never let what you see,dictate what you believe ".
Sep-22-12  psmith: <erniecohen> How is 29... Qc7 different from 29... Qe7 which <LoveThatJoker> analyzed to be better for White? (above)
Sep-23-12  LoveThatJoker: <psmith & erniecohen> I noticed both of your posts and I did some analysis with Stockfish on 29...Qc7.

erniecohen is correct in bringing up the idea of 29...Qc7 as the best move for Black in this position - as confirmed to me by Stockfish.

<The difference between 29...Qe7 and 29...Qc7>

In the case of 29...Qc7, after a mass of exchanges occurs on g7, Black is not obliged to play ...Qxg7, but at this point can play ...Kxg7. This allows Black to keep Queens on the board, increasing his drawing chances.

***

I looked at a lot of different lines and spent quite a long time with Stockfish on them. Of all the lines I looked at, the best practical chance for White in my opinion after 29...Qc7, is 30. Qxe6.

Analysis Diagram - Position after 29...Qc7 30. Qxe6


click for larger view

<30...Rxg6>

[30...Qd7 31. Rxg7+ Rxg7 32. Rxg7+ Qxg7 33. Qxc6 Qg4 34. Qxf6 Qh3+ 35. Kg1 Qxe3+ 36. Qf2 (+2.30/Depth of 27)]

<31. Qf5 Rfg7 32. h5 Qf7 33. Rg2 Qe8 34. Rg4 Kh6 35. hxg6 Rxg6 36. Rh4+ Kg7 37. b4 Qg8?!>

(37...a6! =)

<38. b5 Rg5 39. Qd7+ Kf8 40. Qd8+ Kf7 41. Qxg8+ Rxg8 42. bxc6 Ke6 43. Rh7 a6 44. c7 Rc8 45. Kh2 Kd6 46. Rf7 Ke6 47. Rg7 Kd6 48. Kg3 Rxc7 49. Rxc7 Kxc7 50. Kg4 Kd6 51. Kf5 Ke7 52. Kg6 Ke6 53. a3 Ke7 54. Kg7 Ke6 55. a4 a5 56. Kf8 f5 57. Ke8 Kf6 58. Kd7 Kf7 59. Kd6>

I ask you to kindly assist me with some more engine/tablebase analysis to show if Black could have significantly improved his play in this line aside from 37...a6! - In case something is missing here.

As you can see, both sides have to play very accurately to press the advantage/hold the draw respectively. This said, once again, 29...Qc7 was indeed Black's best move.

LTJ

Sep-23-12  erniecohen: <LoveThatJoker,psmith>: <LoveThatJoker> is right that the key difference between 29...Qe7 and 29...Qc7 is that after the latter, Black can recapture with his K on g7, but it's not the exchange of Q's that's important, it's what happens after White captures the e-pawn: after 29...Qe7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Qxg7 32. Qxe6, we get


click for larger view

whereas after 29...Qc7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Kxg7 32. Qxe6 we get


click for larger view

The second position is a dead draw after 32...Qg3; white cannot save the h-pawn without giving up a perpetual. 32...Qg3 doesn't work in the first position because after 33. Qf7+, White will capture the f-pawn with check.

Sep-23-12  LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> It should be noted - according to Stockfish, and certain pertinent theoretical concepts espoused by GM Jesus de la Villa in his excellent book "100 Endgames You Must Know" - that in this case, keeping the Queens on board is at least an equally important feature to ensuring that Black keeps his f-pawn.

I have Stockfish fired up as I write this and it gives all lines as equal after 29...Qc7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Kxg7 32. Qxe6 Qg3, due to the fact that Black's Q has significant and powerful counterplay against White's K (i.e., perpetual check).

Of course after 29...Qc7, the fact that Black's K protects the f-pawn is of great importance - something I myself observed but did not write about in my previous note, as it part and parcel of having the King capture on g7.

However, if you look at the 29...Qe7 line, Black is forced to part with his Q as he doesn't have time to get the essential "perpetual check counterplay"; whereas with 29...Qc7, Black gets this essential counterplay.

In the two lines that Stockfish is currently evaluating after 29...Qc7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Kxg7 32. Qxe6 Qg3, there is no exchange of Queens and perpetual check leads to a draw.

As I mentioned in the first paragraph, GM Jesus de la Villa, has some very important statistical tables in his book that place a lot of emphasis on examining how and why games are drawn in the endgame: According to the the stats he observed/examined, Queen endings are notorious for being drawn due to the instances involing counterplay, with check, against the opposing K.

This endgame involving 29...Qc7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Kxg7 32. Qxe6 Qg3 has a very strong "drawn by perpetual check" element about it.

That's why as per Stockfish's analysis that I gave eariler, 29...Qc7 30. Qxe6 is preferrable if White wishes to seriously try to convert his advantage into a win.

LTJ

PS. I just want to reiterate that you are correct in saying that it is critical that Black keep his f-pawn if he can; but, again, this is indeed a complimentary feature of importance with Black ensuring that he can get proper counterplay. Both are tremendously important in this position.

Sep-23-12  erniecohen: <LoveThatJoker> I should have been more clear: it's not a matter of Black keeping the f-pawn, it's a matter of it falling with check, which allows White to prevent the perpetual.

I don't know that 29...Qc7 30. Qxe6 is the best line for White. I think you already established that it looks like a pretty clear draw. That said, I think all other lines peter out into draws also.

The 29...Qe7 line is actually not quite as bad as you and Stockfish think. Instead of...Qg3, Black has to protect the f-pawn while threatening counterplay against the white pawns. For example, after 32...Qg6 33. Kh2 Qc2+ 34. Kg3 Kg7 35. h5 Kh6 36. Qxf6+ Kxh5 Black still has good drawing chances.

Sep-23-12  LoveThatJoker: <<>erniecohen: <LoveThatJoker> I should have been more clear: it's not a matter of Black keeping the f-pawn, it's a matter of it falling with check, which allows White to prevent the perpetual.>

Well said. In 29...Qe7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Qxg7 32. Qxe6 Qg3 33. Qf7+ Kh6 34. Qxf6+, Black has allowed White to not only take the f-pawn, but win it with check and this prevents Black from getting in his much needed "perpetual check counterplay."

<<>I don't know that 29...Qc7 30. Qxe6 is the best line for White. I think you already established that it looks like a pretty clear draw. That said, I think all other lines peter out into draws also.>

I feel confident that all other lines peter out into draws in an easier fashion for Black, whereas 29...Qc7 30.Qxe6 does give White practical chances to win.

In the line I gave, the draw is there, but it is not immediately obvious.

It's actually along the lines of "Black having to find an only move to draw" - and this "only move", although very much plausible, isn't the only candidate in the position.

That's why I like 29...Qc7 30. Qxe6. Of course, there may be an improvement in between that takes that variation in an easier direction for Black, but at least this line I presented is seriously in the realm of possibility - which is good for White.

<<>29...Qe7> I'm glad you looked more in depth into this line, Ernie. I hope you know that I respect your judgement, whether or not it was computer-assisted, because it is clear you are an experienced Chess player/analyst anyway.

29. Rg6 Qe7 30. Rxg7+ Rxg7 31. Rxg7+ Qxg7 32. Qxe6 Qg6 and the subsequent moves you presented (very much liked by Stockfish by the way) actually may be the safest and fastest way for Black to secure the draw after all.

LTJ

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